hol+ by Dr. Taz

Thriving, Not Just Surviving: Kris Carr’s Cancer and Wellness Journey
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Kris Carr: I've been living with stage 4 cancer for 20 years now. I think that, especially as women, we're all so powerful. And we undervalue our power in such a big way. And we give our power away. And often times we don't even recognize our power until the shizzle hits the fan. I think we've lost our way when it comes to sort of the basics and getting back to nature and back to the foundation and back to the garden.

Kris Carr: I really equated food with like, deprivation, you can't have that, you have to be on a constant diet and I had a lot of issues around food and I think that cancer allowed me to make peace with my plate.

Dr. Taz: Hearing the word cancer is a devastating diagnosis at any age, and as a physician, I have sat with many patients who find out for the first time that they are dealing with cancer or maybe a little bit further along in their journey.

Dr. Taz: Well, over the 20 years that I've been in practice, we're only seeing more and more cancer, and unfortunately, we are seeing it younger and younger. That's why I am thrilled to introduce you to my guest, Chris Carr, who you might already know. She is a New York Times bestselling author. She's written seven books, a 20 year cancer survivor, and she's been called a force of nature by O Magazine and was named a new role model by the New York Times.

Dr. Taz: She's a member of Oprah's Super Soul 100, recognizing the most influential thought leaders of today. Her work has been featured in Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, Glamour, Good Morning America, The Today Show, and so many other media appearances and television shows. Chris teaches people how to take back their health and live like they mean it.

Dr. Taz: Her work will change the way you live, love. and eat. Welcome to the show. Chris, I'm a bit giddy at the moment. I have been following your work for years. I think you're phenomenal. I know that you've made such a dent in the space around holistic health, but specifically holistic oncology, but you have your own story.

Dr. Taz: And for those of you who don't know the incredible Chris Carr, you guys are missing out. And I know your story started in 2003. And I honestly didn't enter this space until maybe 2006, 2007. And I think people like you were an inspiration to me. as I was trying to put pieces of my own story together and trying to figure out which way to go.

Dr. Taz: So personally, I couldn't be more excited. Professionally, I can't wait for what you have to share with our audience. But I want you to share your story. How did you even enter into the world of holistic health? You know, I want you to tell that story.

Kris Carr: Well, thank you. And I'm a big fan of yours and I've been so benefited by your work, especially now that I am 53 and I'm on a different health journey right there with

Dr. Taz: you and you are

Kris Carr: one of my gurus.

Kris Carr: And so this is a really magical moment for me too. Oh, I love it. I love it. So, you and I were kibitzing a little bit. My journey started on Valentine's Day in 2003, and that's when I was diagnosed with a rare and incurable stage four cancer. And so I've been living with stage four cancer for 20 years now.

Kris Carr: But back At the time. Because you were how old? I was 31. 31 at that time. Young woman. Young woman. And because I have a rare disease, oftentimes there's very little known about rare cancers specifically because there aren't many of us, there isn't much funding for research, and so the progress is very slow.

Kris Carr: And at the time when I was diagnosed, the first doctor suggested a triple organ transplant. So I have tumors in both of my lungs and my liver.

Dr. Taz: What type of cancer?

Kris Carr: Do you mind sharing? I have a sarcoma. Sarcoma. So a rare sarcoma. And um, I didn't know much about medicine. I knew nothing about medicine, but I thought that's not a good idea.

Kris Carr: And it was really that moment where I decided I had to, what I call now, is becoming the CEO of your house. Yes. And building your team and stepping in that leadership role. role and saying, I'm in charge, higher fire, I know the most about my body. And I looked for somebody, I looked for a doctor who not only had his finger on the pulse of research, but was kind and had a good bedside manner and wasn't radical and all, you know, and it took a bit and I got a lot more, you know, you've got 10 years to live, all the different things that the different doctors said.

Kris Carr: Um, and I finally found my second in command and he suggested a really radical approach, which was, let's do nothing. We're going to watch and wait and let cancer make the first move because the disease I have can be slow growing, but it can also be aggressive and it can also change.

Dr. Taz: And let's just talk about, okay, you're 30 years old.

Dr. Taz: I don't want to let this go. You're 30 years old and you get a diagnosis of the C word. which to this day, no matter how old you are, it's terrifying, terrifies everybody, right? You're sort of like, well, how long do I have? What's going to happen next? You know, where do I go? What do I do? And 2003 for all of you watching and listening.

Dr. Taz: 2003 was the dark ages when it comes to, when it comes to like health and wellness, right? We were still sort of like, do what the doctor tells you to do, you know, follow orders, follow directions. If you don't do something, then it was going to be damnation and all the other things that come after that. So when someone tells you to do nothing.

Kris Carr: Isn't that scary? It was scary because I didn't know anybody like me. I thought, you got a diagnosis, you did treatment, you were hopeful that it would work, and then you got back to your life, whether you liked that life or not. And the fact that I couldn't make it go away. it was, I often say that it's probably my biggest spiritual practice, which is learning acceptance and learning how to go the distance with something that I'd prefer not to go the distance with, but to learn how to love and take care of myself anyway and not be resentful or feel like my body's let me down or all of the different places that we go.

Kris Carr: Um, and that took a long time to get there, but. I think another thing that happened was because there was nothing I can do in the tracking period, I felt so out of control that I needed to have some sense of control. And that's when I started on my holistic path. I literally left the hospital that day and I went to Whole Foods Market.

Kris Carr: I had no idea what I was doing. Like, vegetables terrified me. Kale was terrifying. So why

Dr. Taz: Whole Foods?

Kris Carr: What were you doing before? What was your career before? I was an actress. I was a dancer. I was a photographer. I was living in New York City. I was existing on fake food, fast food, takeout. Ah, okay. The life.

Kris Carr: Yeah, it was about what You eat to stay skinny for auditions, right. It wasn't like about fueling your

Dr. Taz: body. We're contemporary. So yes. I think I've told the story before it was Diet Coke and popcorn because it was low calorie. Right? Low calie. Yeah. It feels to be healthy , you know? So, um, okay, so that makes sense.

Dr. Taz: Now, so you, you're living this fast-paced life. You're in New York City. Yeah, right. You know, running probably a mile a minute. You get this diagnosis and you turn to Whole Foods.

Kris Carr: Honestly, I go back to like, well, vegetables are good for you. They say, okay, I could do that. You know, what can you control? The first thing is like, well, what I put in my body and then what I put on my body.

Kris Carr: And then you start to learn a little bit, you know, and then you learn about the food system. And you learn about the medical system. And then I remember saying to myself, why don't more of us know about this? Right. You know, we don't come into this planet with an owner's manual. And oftentimes we have to put one together when we've hit an icy patch in our life.

Kris Carr: And, and so that was the beginning of my journey. And luckily I loved becoming a student of wellness. And it also allowed me to channel my fear in a positive direction. Uh, and, and then I started feeling better and I started writing and teaching and I made a film about my journey and, and then my life really

Dr. Taz: changed.

Dr. Taz: Turned into a different, in a different direction. You're such a big advocate now for holistic health and really a supportive person for anyone going on a cancer journey. And I think that's incredible. I want to go back to though, as you're trying to chart your own journey, because one of the things I hear about over and over again in practice is this sort of like, I don't know where to start.

Dr. Taz: I don't know what to do. I don't know who to listen to. And we have more information today than we had, you know, when you and I were coming along and I'm thinking about you in the city. You know, we're sitting here in New York City filming at the moment, like in the city, trying to get answers, trying to put the pieces together as a nonmedical person, you know, for anyone watching and listening to us today, because I think that in itself is relevant no matter what the year is and no matter, you know, no matter what timeframe we're in, you know, how did you, Start that journey.

Dr. Taz: Like, what did you do first? What did you do second? You know, and what did you see in your body as you started to put these pieces together?

Kris Carr: Well, I feel blessed because literally that day at Whole Foods Market, I picked up a few books and it was about healing naturally. Not that I, it was my intention to eschew modern medicine.

Kris Carr: Again, I didn't have treatment options. Um, it was that. portal into an anti inflammatory diet. We were talking about inflammation also. Right, right. And I didn't know anything about that. And so that's where I started. And originally I started, I was macrobiotic and then I became a raw foodist and you know, now I teach a whole foods plant based diet.

Kris Carr: And it, you don't even have to be a hundred percent plant based. The point is can we eat more real foods, whole foods, fruits, vegetables, the medicine, right? And so, um, It was through trial and error about what feels good to me, and I did many different certification programs. I would do, I would go as deep as I possibly could as if I wanted to become a teacher or practitioner because I needed to feel the benefits.

Kris Carr: For you? Yeah, for me.

Dr. Taz: Totally relate.

Kris Carr: Um, and so really I went, I followed the inflammation trail. Mm hmm. And it took me to many wonderful places.

Dr. Taz: That's incredible. So you start to get better. Are you realizing you're getting better or is this more like you're going in to do, like, lab work and testing and that type of thing?

Dr. Taz: So I start to feel better. What specifically? What did you notice as you adopted this

Kris Carr: lifestyle? First of all, my digestion was working for the first time. I was actually having bowel movements regularly. Which you weren't before. Wow. You know, and I had natural energy as opposed to energy that would be created by substances.

Dr. Taz: Mm

Kris Carr: hmm. Um, and I feel as though because I came up at a time in specifically in the dance world where we had to be so thin. Yes. And I had, um, I did business finally with a real difficult disordered eating habit. Um, because I really equated food with like, you know, deprivation. You can't have that. You have to be on a constant diet.

Kris Carr: And so I, I had a lot of issues around food. And I think that cancer allowed me to make peace with my plate. And to see food in a way of like being thankful and grateful, and this is medicine, this is healing, and to change my relationship with my body, to appreciate my body for the first time, and the trillions of things that it does for me every day without me even thinking about it.

Kris Carr: And sure, there's some areas that are struggling, but can I send love and support to those areas instead of continuing to participate in, in, in making those areas, uh, struggle.

Dr. Taz: You know, it's so interesting. Are you still in the dance world? Or did you stay in the dance world? No, I actually,

Kris Carr: I left my career, and I, I made my film and then I started writing books and I, I left New York City.

Kris Carr: I, I took a really radical turn, um, because I had been performing. Since I was a kid, and I had been everybody but me, right? You're doing all these different roles, becoming all these different people, and I'm like, Who is Chris? Because we need to figure that out right

Dr. Taz: now. She needs you. You know, I've met so many, you know, young women and women in the dance world and the acting world, models.

Dr. Taz: Or even when I look at my own daughter who's now 16 and her peer group, this idea of food equaling deprivation, starvation, is still there. Yeah. And it's really worrisome. And I don't know if you have any advice to maybe the moms like me or even to a young woman listening today. How do we first make acceptance, you know, around or make peace with food really?

Dr. Taz: Because I think that society still to this day continues to hold up an image regardless of what career you're, you know, you end up choosing. And then I know dance, acting, modeling is like turning that up about 1000%. You know, how do we start to teach our young women? To not go down that road, you know, of really fighting food, fighting, you know, fighting their bodies, you know, because when I hear you talk, I'm hearing not, and this is a big mission of this show, is to bring the science of a lot of what's happening with our human experience and our spirit together, because I think you can't separate the two.

Dr. Taz: The two are very much intertwined together, but we still need to make it practical and tactical and logical for folks, right? How do you do that? Right.

Kris Carr: Well, I think everybody's individual, but as you were talking, um, it's such a powerful and beautiful question and hopefully. I can offer some perspective. I think that, especially as women, we're all so powerful and we undervalue our power in such a big way and we give our power away.

Kris Carr: And oftentimes we don't even recognize our power until the shizzle hits the fan and we have to dig deep. And but the truth is, is that power is there all along and the sooner we can start to honor it, nurture it, respect it, grow it, deepen it. I think the more fruitful and meaningful our life becomes and that doesn't come from comparing yourself to others.

Kris Carr: It comes from befriending yourself and really having your own back and walking your own path and also finding Mentors and women that you are like, yeah That aren't necessarily the ones on tik tok or the Kardashians or whatever, you know, right? I don't want to put anybody down but anybody that you look up to who is an individual who is shining, uh, her own power and, and really standing in her light in a way that isn't conforming to advertising models or the way women should look or should be, you know, when you're triggered, you know, ultimately, like even when I go on Instagram and I'll see somebody awesome and I'm like, you trigger me.

Dr. Taz: Why do

Kris Carr: you trigger me? Because you're, for whatever reason, I'm feeling You don't feel good. I don't feel good. So you're not my mentor. You're great doing your thing. But the people that I gravitate towards, I'm like, damn, I was watching this interview with Kate Winslet on 60 Minutes. I love her. She's so herself.

Kris Carr: Yeah. She's talking about body image and how she, you know, one of her acting teachers has said, Oh, if you're going to look like this, darling, you're going to have to settle for the fat girl roles. Yeah. Yeah. I remember her saying that. Yeah. Right. And so, so many of us would shrink when we heard that, you know what she said, she said, I'll show you.

Kris Carr: It's a choice. So what's your I'll show you? Right. Because that's how you're going to get through the gauntlet of, of, of trying to

Dr. Taz: navigate and survive as a woman. I love that. You know, I think two things there that I just want to make sure we dial into. First of all, if it doesn't feel good. Walk away. You know, I think so many people, and I don't care how old you are.

Dr. Taz: You could be a teenager or you could be somebody in your sixties, but if you're doing something or following someone or seeing images that don't make you feel good, I think turn the corner, right? There's no reason to continue to engage in that. And I love the second, I love the I'll show you. And I've used that.

Dr. Taz: mantra many a time in my life. You're going to tell me no? Let me show you. You know, I love that. And I actually, to this day, I am following that, you know, to a T. So I love that. But, um, let's go back to your journey. And you're embraced a plant foods diet. You're feeling better. Your gut's working much better.

Dr. Taz: Tell us what happens next. So, I still

Kris Carr: get tracked and, you know, in the beginning it was every two months, three months, six months, year. That was a huge graduation point for me of going in and my tumors have still been stable each time. Sometimes they get smaller, but for the most part, They're just stable.

Kris Carr: And again, that can still change. And 20 plus years later, now there are starting to be some potential treatment options. I wouldn't do any of them right now because I feel great and I'm still stable, but if things were to become aggressive You might consider it. I would absolutely consider it, you know.

Kris Carr: And now I go in every five years, which is Amazing. Amazing. I feel like that's, that's enough. What are

Dr. Taz: doctors, what do they say when they hear your story and track your journey? You know, what's the medical community, how have they weighed in? You can be honest. I know, I know I'm a physician, but you can be completely honest.

Dr. Taz: Yes,

Kris Carr: absolutely. You know, I'm in a rare group of people with my disease. Um, there aren't many of us at this Mark this, uh, you know that we've had it as long as I have. And so I think what's happening now is this, this desire to study us to see if there's anything that's happening in our bodies that could help other patients like me.

Kris Carr: Um, so hopefully there'll be more studies like that. Maybe one that I can join. Definitely. Yeah. And, and be a part of.

Dr. Taz: You know, it's interesting 'cause when I hear you tell your story. and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing an intuitive journey. I'm hearing, I'm going to do the things that are healthy, I have a few resources, I'm going to follow those resources, and I'm going to listen to my body, and I'm going to honor my body.

Dr. Taz: At any point, and I, and the answer might be no, because I know medicine has evolved in the years since, but at any point, was there sort of a strategic plan that maybe either you created or a medical partner created where, Hey, let's look at inflammation consistently. Let's look at these key nutrient values in your cancer journey.

Dr. Taz: You know, let's see what your hormones are doing. You know, what are the variables that may be feeding this or maybe helping to reduce it and kind of measuring that? Was there any of that available to you? A little bit. Um,

Kris Carr: most of that was not available at the time, and it was something that I would have to sort of track on a piece of paper.

Kris Carr: You know what I mean? Wow. Wow. Let me get my sketch pad out. Exactly. Let me just see my blood work. Um, but then I started to work with an integrative oncologist, um, Keith Block, in Chicago. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And he was, he was a turning point for me because I hadn't worked with an, I hadn't found an integrative doctor who could also, like, really understand, um, my particular situation.

Kris Carr: And so that was very, very helpful and then my He's very aligned with my nutrition protocol and what I have been following and practicing and he's very much for it. Um, but then taking my supplementation up to the next level and then also a big part of the journey for me was it's, I often say that in the beginning I was focused on what I'm eating, right?

Kris Carr: And then around the 10 year mark, I started to focus on what was eating me. Oh, right. Because I love this. Yeah, we'll go. Yeah, I got to go there. We know that inflammation, of course, it's what we're eating, what we're drinking, what we're thinking, how we're resting, how we're renewing. Right. And that thinking piece is such a big part because stress is, you know, the foundation of so much of the situations that we don't want to find ourselves in.

Kris Carr: Um, so Keith was very helpful and a few other practitioners along the way. Um, but for the longest point. point in my journey. It was a, it was a total black box. And it's interesting because it wasn't until about two years ago where I had some hormonal issues that I started to go down the road of finding you.

Kris Carr: And I, it was literally like I was back at the beginning of my journey the first day I walked into Whole Foods and you can realize, wow, I have taught myself so much but I completely ignored one Part of my education because it wasn't cancer related. Right. And so I was like, I guess everything's fine But I had all of these new symptoms and these new issues that had nothing to do with cancer But were really debilitating like even more so than cancer.

Kris Carr: Yeah for me. Yeah And so I'm on that journey now. I'm like a fresh student in the hormone world, in the hormone world. And it's fascinating and exciting. And, and I'm so grateful for you. And I really am. And my girlfriends and I were talking about it this weekend, and it's also so frustrating to be 53 years old.

Kris Carr: And, and to feel like, why is this so new and it's so, you know Well, you feel for our

Dr. Taz: mothers and our grandmothers who just sort of like, hands up in the air, this is getting old, you know, and, and it felt like, and I even think of my own mom at my age, and she was having a lot, I love you mom, but she was having a lot of mental health issues.

Dr. Taz: And now that I have sort of the wisdom and the maturity to look back. It was hormonally driven. She was probably going through menopause at the time. You know, having an, our entire family has an issue with androgens. Androgens make you crazy. They literally make you crazy. They drive anger and rage and you know, there are even some studies that say they trigger bipolar disorder and OCD and all this other stuff.

Dr. Taz: So as women, it just continues to baffle me. I mean, I guess I've sat in a seat where my entire journey into this. base is because of hormones. So maybe I have a little bit more of a front row seat to all of this. But when you do this over and over again, day in and day out, you're just like, how can we not talk about hormones in women's health when it relates to every single thing, your gut health, your, you know, mental health, your energy, your sleep, your relationships and so much more.

Dr. Taz: So I do think it's a big, you know, big blank space that is slowly getting filled now, but we still have a lot of work to do, you know, in that. But thinking about you again, as you're working with Dr. Block, whose work I've looked at too, and I know he does incredible things in the cancer space, you know, and you're starting to understand a little bit more about the physiology of your body and the chemistry of your body.

Dr. Taz: You talked about taking supplementation up a degree. What were the things you found out of curiosity?

Kris Carr: I mean, I'd say that there's, I found a few things first and foremost. Cause you're living a plant based life at this point, right? So. Just curious. For me, it was, you know, all the basics are very important, you know, vitamin D, vitamin B, all of the things that are the baseline stuff, right?

Kris Carr: Um, making sure that the vast majority of my nutrients are coming from food. Right. And that that is my, my foundation. And I think that supplementation fills in the gaps. It complements a healthy diet. It complements a healthy lifestyle. But then, working with Keith, I started to work with mushrooms and all these other things that could support my immune system and my T cells and, and things like that.

Kris Carr: Um, I also think for the vast majority of Normal, everyday, regular people. It can get very overwhelming. Very much. And we start to throw up our hands because all of a sudden we've got so many supplements to take. And you don't necessarily key in to feeling better. It's happening on the inside and you're just hoping something's working.

Kris Carr: You don't see the

Dr. Taz: payoff. I hear that from patients all the time. Yeah. They're like, this is just too much. Like, I don't know what it's doing.

Kris Carr: Yeah. So I, what I try to do is keep it very simple. And, um, and I think for anybody out there listening, you know, you can obviously work with a wonderful doctor. I think better to work with a doctor if you can because then we're, you're being guided by your blood work.

Kris Carr: Um, and that'll tell you a lot about what it is that you need and what would be helpful to support. I mean, you know, this is my wheelhouse. And then also being, being brave enough to say like, hey, I know me. I'm the type of person that if it's more than five things, I'm probably not gonna take it. I'm gonna waste a whole bunch of money.

Kris Carr: Like start slow. Build a practice just like anything else that it starts to work into your life So that you can actually commit to it and see the change in your blood work in three months six months and so forth because I Again, like I took the full on sell your apartment go on a journey like throw yourself in because I was so scared But most people do better with like that slow and steady stacking new habits approach

Dr. Taz: so that they don't burn out Very much.

Dr. Taz: It's been such a blessing working with so many different types of people, and I think it goes back to what you started with, that you really have to know yourself, and you really have to trust yourself, because I think some of us are like, I'm gonna do it all, bring it all in, and you know, you tell me what to do, I'm gonna commit to it, and you'll walk through every step, but the majority of us, you know, I'm gonna do it.

Dr. Taz: That's a lot. And so I think you have to have a lot of self acceptance. And then I always talk to patients about employing sort of what I learned from the ER, where we're triaging. What is of highest priority at this given moment? And what, what's your capacity? What are you able to do? If you're feeling exhausted, And fatigued.

Dr. Taz: We need to do level one and level two. We don't need to worry about all this other minutia right now. We can get to it later, you know, and really kinda working through a plan and building a plan that way, I think is the way, and I, and I continue to this day, to have the patients that come in with like big bags of supplements and dump them all out on the counter and like, this is what I'm taking and there is such a thing as too much.

Dr. Taz: Yeah, there's definitely such a thing as too much so glad you said that

Kris Carr: and I so appreciate your approach because I, I think that it just opens the door to more of us. Definitely.

Dr. Taz: You can do it. And it's a part of my passion, honestly. I feel like you can do one thing. Everyone can do one thing. And that one thing has a reverberating effect on the human body and the human spirit, both, you know, and I think that's the thing that makes me just be like, please listen, please do something.

Dr. Taz: But you said something else that we can't walk away from. You said you learned what was eating you. More than just what you were eating. What was happening there in that space? Because again, Chinese medicine talks about this. Ayurvedic medicine talks about this. So many older, you know, shamanic systems of medicine talk about this.

Dr. Taz: When you are carrying burdens in the spirit, in the soul, it will show up in the physical body. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but at some point it shows up my personal clinical experience. It shows up as inflammation. Historically, it shows up as high cortisol. It shows up as mental health issues.

Dr. Taz: There are many different ways that it shows up. One of the biggest things that I have a problem with is that the way we've structured medicine today is that we don't leave time and space to get into that. And we're not really healing people when we get, when we don't go there. So I want you to go there if you're comfortable.

Dr. Taz: Yeah. And let people know what that was. And then what did it do in this journey that we call cancer? Journey

Kris Carr: that we call cancer, wellness, prevention, autoimmune, whatever it is. Um, so 10 years in, I'm practicing a whole foods plant based diet. I'm already a New York Times bestseller, like things are happening, right?

Kris Carr: And people are starting to follow my work and a lot of people are starting to feel better. And I feel better, but I still have cancer. And so at the 10 year mark, which is my original expiration date, everybody was very happy, but me. And so my dad was there, my mom was there, my, my family was in the room when I got the good news that everything was still looking good.

Kris Carr: And there was this moment where I just said, wow, I'm really so hell bent on curing myself. That if I don't cure myself, life isn't good enough. Like I haven't, I need to put a neat bow on this. It's like an expectation thing, like a grade almost, like a report card. Yeah. And here are also people who are practicing what I'm teaching and curing themselves, right?

Kris Carr: And so, I think I felt like a big failure. That's not something that I was sharing or I was even really, um, recognizing in myself, but we, my husband and I were driving back from Dana Farber's, where my cancer is in, uh, hospital is in Boston, and I said I quit. He said, what, what are you quitting? I said, I'm quitting doing all this for cancer.

Kris Carr: I have to do this for me. I have to take care of myself and live a healthy life for me, not because I'm trying to get an A on the report card and be in remission, as if if only if I'm remission, then I can live. Right. And so what I realized in that journey was I had a lot of mental and emotional work to do around fear, anxiety, acceptance.

Kris Carr: Worthiness. And a lot of my old trauma. So I'm adopted. I was raised by my mother and my grandmother, but I didn't know my biological father until I was a teenager. And we were in each other's lives for a period of time. And then he cut me out of his life again, um, after my first book came out. And what I realized was, is that this old trauma was coming up and it was around abandonment and rejection and not being good enough.

Kris Carr: And I was somehow tying it into cancer. Right, and I was rejecting and abandoning and feeling not good enough because I wasn't cured.

Dr. Taz: Mm hmm,

Kris Carr: and then I realized there's a difference between curing and healing and that curing is a physical experience and it may or may not happen. Great if it does, if it doesn't, that doesn't mean life is over, but healing is a spiritual right experience and it's available to every single one of us to the moment of our death and beyond and And that was a turning point for me.

Kris Carr: And that's when I started to practice, let's call it stress management, you know, and really go back into therapy and start to take care of my mind, not just my body. Um, and start to weave that into my teaching so that as I continued to write books and whatnot, that I was emphasizing the mind as much as the diet.

Kris Carr: You know, um, how you're feeling about yourself, your stress levels, as much as are you moving, are you sleeping, you know, and, and, and so that was, that was the turning point. It was in that car, it was after that scan, and, and I, I said this, This is ridiculous. This is awful.

Dr. Taz: I've told this story before, you know, so bear with me as I tell it again, but I have sat with so many men and women, and you know, especially with women, when they're going through a great trauma or a great loss, or a divorce, or these type of things, um, unfortunately, sometimes I can clock it.

Dr. Taz: I can clock it. And I can say, If we don't start to explore some of these emotions and these feelings in 18 months, we're going to be dealing with something. I don't like to use the C word, but over and over again, it's typically breast cancer. And there are many different reasons for that, which have to, you know, I think Chinese medicine probably explains it.

Dr. Taz: The best, you know, the anger and grief sit in the liver and the lung and that runs right through the breast, you know, and, you know, there's that emotional vibration to all of these different things, I think, processing these feelings of rejection and abandonment, you know, loss and grief. It's easy to go through life without ever acknowledging them.

Dr. Taz: It's either very easy to put the armor on and walk your way through, but they are impacting you in so many different ways, whether it's a decision you make about a career or a partner or, you know, or what you're going to eat that day to actually, you know, expression of disease, how How do people work through this?

Dr. Taz: I feel like this is a place, to be 100 percent honest and vulnerable here, this is a place I still to this day struggle just a little bit in the exam room, you know, because I want to lead people there, but I feel like it's so hard or I don't have the right words or the right tools or there's something that I'm not saying to get you from here to here.

Dr. Taz: So I would love for you to share Because I know you have a big and you need to share your more about your community and the work you're doing and you know how you've touched so many other people, you know, as we tell your story, how did you get there? and work through all those things, and how are you helping the many people that are coming into your community do that exact same thing?

Kris Carr: Well, that was the first moment, probably. Um, and then, about, I guess, four years ago, my, my dad passed, and, and he was my chosen father, and we were very, very close. And so my most recent book is called, I'm Not a Mourning Person, mourning With a U.

Dr. Taz: Mm.

Kris Carr: And it's about braving, loss, grief, and the big messy emotions that happen when life falls apart.

Kris Carr: Yeah. And we've all been touched by trauma in some way. Trauma with a small t, trauma with a big T. Um, as Gabor Mate says, it's not what happens to you, it's what happens inside of you in that moment and to your beautiful point that when we don't address. The, the parts that are still hurting, um, it comes out in some other way.

Kris Carr: It's like physics. Right. Right. Very much. Yeah. And maybe it won't come out in a disease, but it'll come out in an, uh, unfulfilling relationships or a career that is never, you know, your dream or your passion or whatnot, because you are Willfully holding yourself back because you're still stuck in the stories.

Kris Carr: And so you're not going to go for the thing that would make you so happy and whatnot. And so I Think it starts by saying it's okay to not be okay. There's a great book a grief book with that title and I think so few of us are Emotionally literate. Mm

Dr. Taz: hmm,

Kris Carr: right and what I thought Really, when my dad died was, I, I didn't realize how I was allergic to grief.

Kris Carr: Allergic to grief? Yeah. I was so afraid of feeling my grief because I thought that if I felt it, it would take me under like a tsunami. It would just suck me out to sea and the Chris that we know and some of us love, would just be like, no more. Yeah. And um, And, and that, that feeling in and of itself is such a, does such a disservice to our emotions because we live, as you so beautifully said earlier, like, how do we navigate this time?

Kris Carr: Especially for young women, social media. Yes. And we live in a time where. Um, we are in a grief phobic, messy emotions of our society. So few of us know how to have these conversations. And we, we look at certain emotions and say, these are worthy. And other emotions we may say, as my grandmother used to say to me, that's unbecoming, sadness, anger, rage for women, crying, unbecoming, won't find a husband.

Kris Carr: Don't do that. Right. Shove it down, pack it up. Put it on. Right. Keep on tracking. Yeah, I mean. Totally, yes. So can we start to invite these other parts of ourselves, um, to come to the table and share what it is that. Is going on. And one of the things I talk about in the book is we can't amputate any of our emotions and expect to be whole.

Dr. Taz: Mm

Kris Carr: hmm. And wholeness to me is the goal in this life. She answered the question already. What makes you whole? Yeah, I love it. It's like being able to say there's parts of me that are deeply grieving. There's parts of me like sometimes I can't handle my rage and and it'll it'll make me really feel so much shame.

Kris Carr: But I can then get curious about that shame and curious about that rage. And it's, it's almost the same thing as when, when we start our health, our health and wellness journey, curiosity is the number one tool because you're like, Oh, what does this person say? And what would that be like? And we need to get curious about our emotions and to actually start to learn more about them.

Kris Carr: You know, um. Brene Brown has that great book, Atlas Heart. Yes, amazing book. She teaches you every single emotion and what it means and what it is and when I think about that if I know how to care for my, if I understand a little bit about my liver not as much as you know but like layman's terms about my liver then I can say oh well that's what my liver does and that's what it likes well now I know a little bit about how to care for my liver which has tumors in it which needs my care Oh, can I apply that same way of being to anger, to sadness, to jealousy?

Kris Carr: Oh, well, it's a, they're all signaling emotions, bringing us someplace that honestly leads to more personal growth and, and a deeper connection with self and a, and a deeper healing. So not to vilify them, but, but just go on this path of, I'm going to get to know you this year.

Dr. Taz: So do you release these emotions or do you just?

Dr. Taz: Kind of put them in their place, almost like a book on a bookshelf.

Kris Carr: No, I mean, honestly, you spend time with them. You know, I think that emotions are also energy. And energy needs to move. Very much. It needs to be expressed. Um, and that can happen through journaling. It can happen through movement. It can happen through, you know, a deep conversation like this is very soulful and nourishing.

Kris Carr: It can also happen with a therapist. And for many of us, that's a very good choice. Or a counselor. A place where you feel safe to actually Start to explore what you're feeling, um, and not feel like there's any part of you that's bad or wrong or broken because

Dr. Taz: you're feeling them. I love that. So as you start to sit with your emotions and many of these feelings, which are common, by the way, of rejection and abandonment and unworthiness, and they come in, you know, from so many different places, you know, what's happening with your physical body through this journey?

Dr. Taz: Oh, gosh,

Kris Carr: well, I, I honestly think it, it all works together. Right. Right. And you know this more than anybody. Um, I can say that I sense a deeper connection with myself, more peace, more ease, more ability to weather adversity. Even going into this menopausal journey, I'm deep in perimenopause and starting into like, it didn't happen last month.

Kris Carr: And now it's back this month. Like what the hell is going on? You know what I mean? Right. Of like being able to navigate this chapter. with so much more ease and grace and calm and a sense of agency, um, because of the work that I've done, not just because of my experience navigating stage four cancer, but because of the personal development and personal growth work that I have done.

Kris Carr: It's like, okay, you got this. You're going to be fine. We're going to figure this out. No matter what, you'll be fine. One step at a time here. Um, there's no overwhelming, there's no flooding, there's no shutting down. And I could because there were, there were some medical scares where I remember, you know, one, um, one of my doctors said, this might be endometrial cancer.

Kris Carr: I'm like, it's not. But let's get all the tests. I

Dr. Taz: love that feeling. I think I've got it now too. It's just like you hear stuff but there's this inner wisdom and this inner knowing of like, mm mm. You're wrong. I'm sorry. And I'm not trying to be full of myself. I just know you're wrong. But that comes with this work.

Dr. Taz: It comes with this like clarity, you know, just. ultimate clarity of knowing which way to turn and which way to go. And I love that, you know, you've built this community. Talk to us about the community that you've built and the resources that you offer. And I also want your perspective, you know, cause I'm curious as to who's coming into the community, but.

Dr. Taz: One of the things that I personally am very concerned about is how we, like you, in 2003, we're just seeing an escalating rate of cancer diagnoses in younger and younger men and women. And you know, we just had Kate Middleton go through her journey, and she's, I think, right at 40. We've had so many big figures, you know, big public figures go through this in a, in a very You know, spotlight way, but there's so many people day to day dealing with this.

Dr. Taz: And I get surprised by it too, through my community that all these young women, twenties, thirties, young men, twenties, thirties developing cancer, you know, are you seeing that in your community and what sort of guidance or advice do you have for them? So,

Kris Carr: we definitely have a population of people in my community that have cancer, who have other illnesses, autoimmune, or, or also, there's many people in my community that are just interested in feeling better, and, you know, one of my mottos is prevention is the best cure, you know.

Kris Carr: And so, what I teach is very practical and very, um, accessible. And I basically try to do my best to translate the basics of lifestyle medicine into practice. the foot, what I call the five pillars of wellness and it's about being mindful about what you're eating. Are you eating enough plants, what you're drinking?

Kris Carr: Are you drinking enough water? Are you hydrated? What you're thinking? How's that stress management going? And here are some practical tools to help you soothe and calm and reset your nervous system. Um, what you're eating, drinking, what you're thinking, how you're resting. Let's deal with some of the sleep issues because so many of us aren't sleeping and how you're renewing.

Kris Carr: So moving your body in a way that is creating more energy, more vitality, but isn't so, you know, restrictive or oppressive that you just don't do it. Right. Especially coming from my world as being a ex professional dancer. There's a lot I had around, um, fitness that was joyful, but also filled with baggage.

Kris Carr: So that's what I teach in the pillars rest on a foundation of stress reduction, a. k. a. reducing inflammation. And so. Um, I'm teaching these basics year in, year out to my community. Takes a bunch of my different books and just sort of puts it into one place where people can practice these things in a way that work with their lives.

Kris Carr: Um, and there's, there's nothing that's trendy. There's, there's no latest breakthroughs or fads or what these supplements. Yeah, none of that. It's really, it's like, okay, we go really back to the basics because. This is what I know to be true. If you're not doing the basics, the latest superfood isn't going to do anything for you, you know?

Kris Carr: Right. And so you just continue to build this wonderful practice and enhance it and it grows and it changes, and as I shared my practice is changing now, um, but we always have to get the foundation down before we can start to do all this other stuff.

Dr. Taz: Yeah. Are you concerned with what you're seeing out there?

Dr. Taz: With, you know, our younger folks getting some of these diagnoses faster or dealing with things a little bit earlier? What do you think is happening?

Kris Carr: I mean, I, that would be a question for you, what's happening. I can tell you that from my perspective, um, you and I also talked a little bit, like, we assume that so many of us are educated about how to take care of ourselves, but it's not true.

Kris Carr: Right. And I think that Our world is harder and harder. It's more and more stressful. It's more and more, um, fractured. The information that we get is sort of harder and harder to parse through and understand what's real and what's an influencer. Right. You know, and what do I do and, and we have so many.

Kris Carr: economic disparities and, and lack of access to really foundational, um, care needs that of course it's gonna, it's gonna happen more and more. And when you see younger and younger people who are dealing with so much, you know, increased rates of depression, anxiety, suicide, and a lot of that stems back to social media and all of that.

Kris Carr: Um, I think we've lost our way. When it comes to sort of the basics and like getting back to nature and back to the foundation and back to the garden Um, and I think that's another reason why I like to make it as simple as possible. People say I can't afford organic food I don't Right, I was about to ask you that question.

Kris Carr: Yeah, fine. Just what what can you do as opposed to making it? It has to be pristine. It has to be, you know, certified XYZ PDQ. It's like Okay, that's great if you can do it, but you can also get blueberries and you can also get a bag of, um, whole grain rice and you can also get some beans and, and we can find these practical ways to make it work in your budget, but that you're eating

Dr. Taz: real food.

Dr. Taz: You know, so many people do say that holistic health is hard, holistic health is expensive, you know, holistic health is for the privileged. What do you say to that?

Kris Carr: In some ways it can be marketed that way. Um, but we can also, and, and, yes, 100%. It should be easier for us to eat. Real food. It should be easier for us to um, nourish and care for our bodies, especially in one of the, you know, we're here in the U.

Kris Carr: S., we're here in the United States, we're one of the richest, most powerful nations in the world. Um, it's ridiculous. Our healthcare system is ridiculous. Our, our, uh, our food system is ridiculous. It's broken. There's no doubt about that. So let's just say yes. And we gotta hack the system.

Dr. Taz: Yeah, we definitely do.

Dr. Taz: And what, you know, I'm thinking about your five pillars. And people listening, is there one, if they're trying to nail their starting point in a healing journey, right? Because you and I are both very aligned in that these are healing journeys. These are not about curing, these are not about fixing, these are not necessarily about getting an A on the report card.

Dr. Taz: Which is so funny to me because patients all the time are like, did I do better? Did I do, how did I do? You know? So, I'm like, the numbers are better, but like, how are you? You know? So, but it's the starting point. stress and cortisol.

Kris Carr: I think that's a great place to start. That's it. I think that's a really, really great place to start because if you don't get that down Um, you don't see the breakthroughs that you want to see, you know, and, and I think it's also hard to stay motivated and keep going when you're feeling that stress and feeling that anxiety.

Kris Carr: Um, it could just be as simple as, hey, multiple times a day, I'm going to pause and I'm going to do elongated breathing where my exhale is longer than my inhale. I'm just going to take a beat. You know, you see these people who are out on the street, especially in New York City, taking a cigarette break. Oh yeah.

Kris Carr: And wait, is there a cortisol down

Dr. Taz: even though they're smoking inflammation, oxidative stress, not my suggestion.

Kris Carr: Right. But the impetus is like, Oh, I want to go outside and take some deep breaths.

Dr. Taz: Right. Right. We're not advocating smoking guys

Kris Carr: involved, but it's like. Wow, these moments that we could just take these mindful pauses and then the other thing I would say is, you know, working on our gut health, right, because when we start to feel better, you know, used to anybody out there who struggled with problems with elimination or whatever that is, bloating, all of the discomfort that comes from that.

Kris Carr: I'd say the easiest way to begin is something I call add before you subtract because we want to stay away from deprivation. So can you do something like add a healthy smoothie with good fats and protein and your phytochemicals and you know, fiber and all the things that are going to get the pipes moving, but also fill you with a blast of real nutrition.

Kris Carr: That's going to truly fuel your body and that doesn't take much time and energy. Right. Simple things. Yeah. You don't need to know how to cook. Right. And all of the stress that can come with that. Like, Oh, I got to get a cookbook and make recipes now. Right. Just put it in the blender and go. Right. Right. So if you can have your smoothie and take a deep breath.

Dr. Taz: You're on the path. You're on your way. Now, you've written a number of books. Yes. Maybe talk for just a second. I know we're pushing up on time here, but talk for just a second about some of your books, the latest book you mentioned that's coming out and when everyone can maybe get their hands on that, and then a little bit more about your community and what, you know, somebody who's wanting to join could expect.

Kris Carr: Yeah. Of course. I have lots of books.

Dr. Taz: How many books do you have now? Seven books. Seven books! Seven books. Oh my goodness. That's incredible. Oh thank you. That is incredible. These things are like children. They are children. They like are like birthing a child. I know how much energy that is. It is incredible.

Dr. Taz: Yes.

Kris Carr: And I have a few unruly teenagers in the pack. Some of my books are for specifically for cancer patients. Others are people who are interested in an anti inflammatory plant based diet, cookbooks and whatnot. And my most recent book, as I said, which is out. Um, is about grief and loss. And it's the first of a series of books that will be coming out that really handle what you and I were talking about, which is addressing what's eating you.

Kris Carr: And moving into, if we know that the mind body connection is true, I think I'm in the chapter of my life where I'm, I'm writing more about the mind.

Dr. Taz: Ah, yeah, I love it. I mean, I, I don't know if it's just the evolution of our journeys, but I'm very much about. Um, we can look at the science from here to infinity.

Dr. Taz: We can talk about randomized controlled trials. We can look at all the innovation that medicine has to offer. And there's so much value to that. But if we ignore this other half of us, which is our spirit and our emotional experience, even like our intergenerational experience, we're missing a really big piece of the puzzle.

Dr. Taz: If we're trying to heal, you know, all right, I'm going to leave you with one last question and I think you've answered it. But what makes you whole? Oh,

Kris Carr: well, moments like this. Ah! I love it! That are so wonderful and nourishing and fun. Um, and then I just will just go back to and say it again, that idea of like we can't amputate our emotions.

Kris Carr: And expect to be happy, healthy, functioning people who like walk through life feeling peaceful and really self loving. And so getting to continuing to get to a place where the parts of me that are not Um, what I put on in my bio, let's say, right. They're not the ones that I angry, mean, but I'm like, you're okay too, you know, and, and you must have something that you want to share with me.

Kris Carr: So let me be loving and curious and get to know what's going on because I'm, I'm here to help me and, and here to help others. And so. That's my journey. Oh my gosh,

Dr. Taz: this has been such a gift and such a treat. I, I, like I said in the beginning, I'm giddy because I have followed you forever and I know your work and you know those of us that started out kind of in the dark ages, you know, it's so incredible to like share our journeys together and you're, you're just one of those, you know, shining lights.

Dr. Taz: It's in the space for sure, you know, for everybody who wants to join you in what you're doing and wants to tap into your universe and doesn't know how, where can they find you? Kriscarr. com. That's easy enough. Thank you so much. Sending you the biggest hug. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks

Kris Carr: for having me.

Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening. And watching today's episode of Whole Plus, be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. And if you have it already, please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube, or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcast.

Dr. Taz: Don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. Taz md. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.