hol+ Kids: What’s Happening to Our Kiddos and What Do We Do About It? with Dr. Pejman Katiraei
hol+ Kids: What’s Happening to Our Kiddos and What Do We Do About It? with Dr. Pejman Katiraei
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Dr. Taz: I'm thinking about every other parent out there who doesn't have access, who doesn't know what to screen or look for, but they're seeing these sensory symptoms and they're seeing the issues of shutdown in a social situation. How would you guide them? A
Dr. Katiraei: lot of parents know in their heart, like there's just something off.
Dr. Katiraei: I think as a whole, stating the obvious, there are a lot more kids who are sick.
Dr. Taz: And that's true. That's a fact, right? Kids are sicker today than they were in the past.
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah, the rates of, you know, autoimmune disease, chronic disease, learning disabilities, we know about autism. I think we're coming at the problem a little bit wrong.
Dr. Katiraei: We're focusing so much on the genetics and missing the elephant in the room. And not to say we should discount genetics, but ultimately it's the environment that breaks the genetics.
Dr. Taz: But this connection between our gut and how we absorb and the integrity of our microbiome and inflammation and learning is some that I feel like we're missing in the conventional model of pediatrics.
Dr. Taz: As many of you know, I started my career in pediatrics. But unfortunately, as we continue to see children, we understand that the health needs of children are simply not being met. We have an escalating mental health crisis, we are seeing earlier onset of puberty, and autism is a whole separate discussion in itself.
Dr. Taz: We need better answers, and for that reason, I've brought on my next guest. Dr. Pejman Kadarai, or Dr. K, as he is known, is a board certified pediatrician who completed his undergraduate at UCLA and then obtained his osteopathic medical degree in at Western University. He completed a pediatric residency at Loma Linda University where he stayed on as teaching faculty and also completed two fellowships in integrative medicine.
Dr. Taz: He has over a decade of clinical experience helping children with severe learning and behavioral challenges. We both believe that we need to do more to help all children who are struggling. And that's why he founded Holistic Minds, an AI holistic assistant to help empower an army of healthcare providers to help families and children get to the root cause of all the different complex health issues we are seeing today.
Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Dr. K to the show.
Dr. Katiraei: Pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. Uh, you know, I, I came into the world Of pediatrics kind of by accident. So when I was in medical school, I got to a point where I was really disenchanted. with what I was learning. So I actually had an exit strategy to go into an MBA hospital administration, even lined it up, like had the internship lined up, have my letters of recommendation.
Dr. Katiraei: Like I had it all figured out. I thought
Dr. Taz: why were you disenchanted so early on?
Dr. Katiraei: It just, it didn't feel right. Intuitively there was something wrong. And you know, as, as a little fledgling, there was, you know, a medical student basically in diapers. Like I didn't know why, but it just, it didn't add up. And then I did my pediatrics rotation and it was like, you know, rainbows and unicorns and, you know, I was like, what is going on?
Dr. Katiraei: And, you know, within like two days I was sick as a dog, like with one of four fevers. But like, I was so in love with these kids that I just knew that I had to work with them. And it was during my residency that then the picture started becoming more clear where I remember vividly, like, During one of the rounds, we had this poor guy who had intense ulcerative colitis and ultimately had this mega colon.
Dr. Katiraei: And, you know, he had gone through steroids, they did the biologics, nothing was working. So during rounds, everyone, like all of the attendings together, like, well, he needs to get surgery. You know, obviously, like if the medications don't work, you just cut out his colon. That's, that's the most logical thing.
Dr. Katiraei: And there was like, wait a second, like how about. Diet and like, I didn't know anything from anything. It's not like I knew what integrative medicine was, right? This was just me like being like, Hey, could we try something else rather than no, they're like, no, that doesn't work. And that was like my first, like, that's really weird.
Dr. Taz: Yeah.
Dr. Katiraei: Right. And then I remember another really interesting case where we had this young Hispanic boy teen, he was playing soccer. and slid, got a little cut on his knee, all of a sudden, within 12 hours, his knee blew up, went septic, 36 hours later in our ICU, passed away. And everyone else was like, oh, well, you know, that, that just infection spread really rapidly and we should have done antibiotics earlier.
Dr. Katiraei: You know, and then I was standing back and I'm like, wait a second, how many times have I cut my knee and I didn't end up in the ICU, right? It just didn't make any sense. It just didn't make sense. As I stood back and kept seeing these anomalies where, you know, conventional medicine is like, well, we just, that just happens, you know, like severe asthma, asthma just happens.
Dr. Katiraei: And some kids are in the ICU for four days
Dr. Taz: with COVID too, right? Like some people just get COVID really badly and some people don't, you know, I feel like it's the same, like, why is there this difference, you know?
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah. And it was all of these questions that, that had me just standing back and saying, wait a second, there's, there's just something missing.
Dr. Katiraei: And I was lucky enough to have a program director at Loma Linda that, that was actually open to other things and she was kind of dabbling in integrative medicine and she was the ones like, Hey, Pageman, why don't you try this integrative medicine thing? And I did my first conference and all of a sudden it's like, Oh.
Dr. Katiraei: Oh my God, where is this? The world opens up, right? And then that's when we went into our fellowship together at the university of Arizona and you know, like you, I've just been constantly searching for more answers and what I've realized is I'm sure just like how you've gone and done all these trainings, no one has all the answers, right?
Dr. Katiraei: There is no, like I have arrived in Mecca and here is everything right. But as I've gone into different worlds and learned about this and learned about mold and learned about lime and metals and you know how all of these things affect these kids, the picture has started becoming more and more clear in terms of what's going on.
Dr. Katiraei: And at the end of the day, just like you, I believe that everything happens for a reason. Kids don't just fall sick.
Dr. Taz: Right.
Dr. Katiraei: Autism doesn't happen out of the blue. Oh, that's a big
Dr. Taz: one. We're gonna have to talk about that. You know, like, this
Dr. Katiraei: epidemic of learning disabilities aren't just happening because they're happening.
Dr. Katiraei: Everything has a reason, it's just we're not opening our eyes to why.
Dr. Taz: Well, I think this is so important and it's so important for us to have this conversation because I know there's so many parents out there really struggling right now. There's a lot of information and there's a lot of misinformation.
Dr. Taz: You and I are talking right now, we're about to switch administrations, which have a different viewpoint on health and, you know, what that means for children. You know, let's just Kind of start to peel some of these layers away. Let's start very generally, maybe first, you know, what's different about children and children's health today than maybe it was when you and I were growing up or even going back a Generation when our parents were growing up.
Dr. Taz: What are the unique kind of challenges or strengths? We could look at it in both directions That the children today are dealing with that any parent out there who's listening and concerned about the health of their family Need to be aware of Well, I
Dr. Katiraei: mean, I think as a whole, stating the obvious, there are a lot more kids who are sick, right?
Dr. Katiraei: And there are a lot more And that's
Dr. Taz: true, that's a fact, right? Kids are sicker today than they were in the past, okay? Yeah,
Dr. Katiraei: the rates of, you know, autoimmune disease, chronic disease, learning disabilities, we know about autism. But I mean, just talking with my colleagues, even in the last five to eight years, all of us were like, what is going on?
Dr. Katiraei: Like the rates of these kids with neuroinflammatory conditions, you know, every, these kids are just having more challenges and more issues than ever before. And it's heartbreaking to see.
Dr. Taz: I know. And how are we meeting the needs of these kids today? What is the model changing in terms of evaluating a child or screening a child?
Dr. Taz: Who is an at risk child? Like, how do we, how do we start to sift through some of this?
Dr. Katiraei: So, if we look at this from the conventional lens, I mean, they are trying to do a better job screening, for instance, with autism early on, right? So around 18 months of age, we have this M chat to try to screen for some of these.
Dr. Katiraei: So I think there's definitely more awareness in the conventional community to try to identify these conditions early on. I think from the physiological kind of more integrative approach, this is where there, we're still in kind of no man's land and there are far too few conversations happening and that's why I'm grateful to be here to, to really ask like what's going on.
Dr. Katiraei: And I'll give you an example, um, I'm, I'm kind of a hybrid. I do 50 percent general pediatrics and I see the kids from basically birth on up and then I've got 50%, you know, the kids who are really struggling. And I would say we've probably had about four kids in the practice where we have caught them in early, let's say, infancy, uh, age six to twelve months of age, where they were starting to show the patterns of autism.
Dr. Katiraei: And thank goodness we were able to kind of nip the physiological imbalances. And a lot of these kids had mold exposure. Uh, and you know, they had the extreme colic, they were starting to develop food sensitivities, they had digestive problems. And if you look at, you know, some of the findings with autism, kids have the digestive issues, then they have the constipation and they have sleep disturbances that they have colic and they have food intolerances.
Dr. Katiraei: And then all of a sudden, you know, when they're 18 months, it's like, Surprise, you know, now your kid is autistic, except we miss all of these other things, even though the literature and science has mapped out like, Hey, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this, and then this happens. And we ignore all of that and pay attention to this.
Dr. Taz: You know, I'm going to share the story and try to be very diplomatic about it. I think it was about a decade ago. I went on a particular broadcast show. And I was asked what I thought about autism. And my statement was, I believe autism is an inflammatory bowel disease, and there are many factors that trigger it.
Dr. Taz: The follow up question was, do vaccines cause autism? And my answer was, no, I don't think vaccines cause autism. However, because this is an inflammatory bowel disease, it is yet another contributing Potential issue along with others like mold or nutritional issues or things like that that we can get into and again It's that cumulative load, you know that at the end of the day is making a difference.
Dr. Taz: This was a decade ago. I Get on that plane to come back home and my phone is going out of control. How dare you say that? How dare you bring that up? It was a little bit of a scene because the culture at that time did not even want to, the medical culture did not even want to acknowledge that autism was anything other than just a genetic disorder.
Dr. Taz: So let's jump into autism because I think we've advanced over the last 10 years to now understand that it is indeed, you know, a neuroinflammatory disease and most inflammation begins in the gut. You know, what are you seeing in your exam rooms? Well, first, let's ask one question. Why do you think the rates of autism are so high?
Dr. Katiraei: Because the toxic load that disrupts the system has started breaking the bank, if you want to say, the, the, the tolerance and threshold for the human physiology and depending on genetics is only so much, right? And if you surpass that, The microbiome, the gastrointestinal tract, ultimately the immune system, and the wave of, uh, toxic endotoxins that, that follow, uh, the body just can't handle that.
Dr. Katiraei: So I, I think, you know, between air pollution and metals and pesticides and plastics and everything else, we have just created this soup of toxicity that, that the physiology, the system of these kids just don't have the ability to handle it.
Dr. Taz: And how much do you think genetics are at play when we're having a conversation around autism and autism risk?
Dr. Katiraei: I think for the risk and vulnerability for sure. We know that there are certain genetic subtypes that increase the risk of that. One of the things that's so interesting is to ask how do these genetics influence the vulnerability within the gut? And it turns out that, not all, but several genes actually create predispositions in the gut.
Dr. Katiraei: You get vulnerabilities in the microbiome, you get vulnerabilities in the gut integrity and the gut immune response, and it just creates that weak link. Uh, ultimately can be compromised.
Dr. Taz: So if you're a young parent or you know, you're starting out in the world of building a family mm-hmm . You know, is there something you can do?
Dr. Taz: Can you screen yourself for some of these genetics? Can you screen your child for some of them, you know, how, is there a way to be proactive, you know, and a little bit on the front end of this diagnosis rather than. You know, kind of all of a sudden getting the shock to your system or getting to that 18 month mark and then getting that diagnosis, you know, like, is there a way for us all to be a little bit more actionable in your experience?
Dr. Katiraei: Absolutely. But this is where I think we're coming at the problem a little bit wrong. We're focusing so much on the genetics and missing the elephant in the room. Mhm. So Whether it's lime, or mold, or there are families that are living in farm country where literally just, like, gallons of glyphosate are being sprayed right on their face, we're missing these things.
Dr. Katiraei: And we're missing them in significant ways, like testing, I'm sure you know, like testing for Lyme disease takes an act of God, because if you don't order the right test, you're not paying close enough attention, you'll totally miss it, right? Or mold is a perfect example. Most of the states in this country actually do not have any kind of licensure requirement for someone to be a mold inspector.
Dr. Katiraei: So literally, I can go do a weekend course and now call myself a mold inspector and go into any environment and now say, Oh, there's no mold, even if you have no idea really what you're doing. So, there are so many profound limitations in the envi understanding the environmental risk factors. And I believe if we can get better at identifying these factors.
Dr. Katiraei: We can do so much more good and not to say we should discount genetics. Right. But ultimately it's the environment that breaks the genetics. Right. Right. So yes, understanding genetic vulnerabilities, big deal. But why not see if we can get to a place where we can understand how to quickly identify the environmental factors.
Dr. Katiraei: And I'll give you an example. My friend, uh, Jason Earl. Brilliant guy in the world of mold. He is actually looking at more sophisticated ways where Essentially any family can identify mold in their environment very quickly. Wow to understand like oh shoot We got a problem here. Yeah, and we need to figure out a way to control it And you know the other part of it is I think if we just stood back And started looking at the the obvious things that show up for instance Early on, you know, we say babies just have colic, right?
Dr. Katiraei: Right. Babies just have colic. It's just what it is. Yeah. Except there are kids that cry for five minutes and then there are kids that cry for two to three hours a day. Right. Right? And we just say, well, that's, that's just the same thing. Except it's not, and it turns out that early on, those babies that have the intense colic where you can't get them to sleep, you have to rock them for 15 hours, right, do backwards somersaults, stand on your head to get them to calm down, that's a sign of a histamine imbalance.
Dr. Katiraei: And that histamine imbalance is a sign of a gut integrity issue, right, with mast cells and everything. And if you look at some of the work of Dr. Theo Herades, who's just this brilliant guy, published obscene number of papers, he is talking about how mast cells and microglia, and we can dig into that, is one of the core reasons why autism shows up.
Dr. Taz: Interesting.
Dr. Katiraei: So, early on, these kids who have gnarly colic, that's, that should be a big alarm bell for everyone to say, Oh my goodness, is this the first sign of an immune activation that now tend to to 18 months later, depending on when the colic shows up, is that immune system and gut unraveling. And I think by looking at these things and say, okay, this is a little bit weird.
Dr. Katiraei: What is causing this? We can actually prevent the onset of autism later on because when you look at it, they're the same physiological events. That's
Dr. Taz: fascinating. So mast cells, which we know pour histamine into the body, basically into the gut. Are at the root of this sort of unresolved colic is what the research is saying, or what the science is saying.
Dr. Taz: Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. Well, is there a way to screen for that early on? Is there, other than observing and being observational with like, okay, my child has colic. it's easily, you know, resolved or it's going on forever. Are there other tests that we can do on the baby? I don't know where, like, for example, in our clinic we have, and I'm sure you do too, we offer a lot of different types of testing.
Dr. Taz: You know, there's microbiome testing, there is, you know, we can test for lyphosate, we can test for mold, we can test for these things, but we usually can't do it on an Infant, you know, and as we're trying to guide a family, you know, through caring for this child, you know, do we have the tools now to screen a baby effectively and be like they have a high mold risk, excuse me, they have a high mold risk or they have line markers or they have glyphosate in their system.
Dr. Taz: You know, are there the tools now available to do that?
Dr. Katiraei: I don't think so. Unfortunately not. Sometimes I'll use the parents. is, is the surrogate. So, uh, And we've
Dr. Taz: done that too, where we can test the parents, you know, to give them some information, you know, but we don't have it for the kids yet. No,
Dr. Katiraei: no. And, you know, when you look at these stool tests, for instance, as sophisticated as they are, And you, you probe into, well, how, how good of a job does it do assessing the microbiome, the fungal makeup of the microbiome.
Dr. Katiraei: This is an area that their technology is not yet sophisticated enough to really assess. And when you ask, what is a primary trigger for the mast cell? So these are these immune cells, you know, scoping out our gut and making sure everything is good, right? What really irritates them? The fungus in the gut.
Dr. Katiraei: And that mycobiome, the fungal makeup, is what is a primary trigger for mass cell activity. And there could be many other things, not to say it's the only thing. Right,
Dr. Taz: right, right, right.
Dr. Katiraei: But these are the, these are the big gaps in our diagnostic kind of modalities right now where we don't yet have the ability to look at these things in a really effective way.
Dr. Taz: So let's flip it to, okay, we don't have the ability to test it. And it's interesting to me about the fungal. component being the big trigger for mast cells. Because from a clinic standpoint, one of the things that we keep seeing in our testing, once the children get older, we see it in adults, is an epidemic of something that I've, we've talked about called Candida, or overgrowth of yeast in the gut, right?
Dr. Taz: I feel like that's a global epidemic right now, and we can dive into that later as to why. Is there a clinical protocol? Let's forget about the research and the diagnostics. Are there just some standards of care that we can employ First of all, as clinicians, baby comes in, this is what we do to prevent, maybe, some of this mast cell activation.
Dr. Taz: Or, is there something a parent can do to be a little bit more aware that their child is vulnerable to this mast cell activation? And then what does it mean for how we take care of infants today?
Dr. Katiraei: Great questions. Uh, I think first starting with, kind of, what do we do? Um, I believe, The question that we don't ask enough is why is this happening, right?
Dr. Katiraei: So everyone wants to try to have a quick fix to whatever issue there is, right? My kid is colicky. My kid is not sleeping. Give me a supplement. Right, right. Try to fix it, right? It's not to say that those supplements can't or whatever can't help but if we miss the actual trigger, right, we miss the driving factor Whatever you do to try to calm down that inflammatory response and mitigate whatever thing, it's still going to keep happening, right?
Dr. Katiraei: Because that initial trigger is perpetuating that inflammatory response, the dysfunction. And if you look, with these babies, a lot of them will start with colic, then they'll kind of start developing some eczema. They'll start having some reflux, they'll start developing some food intolerances. So it's the progression of that gastrointestinal, if you want to say inflammation, it's not inflammatory bowel disease, but the gut is not happy.
Dr. Katiraei: Right. And that unhappiness keeps growing. And as that inflammatory response continues and progresses, that's when things really go sideways. And I believe if you don't address the primary root cause, you're not going to be able to rein in that inflammatory response regardless to what you do.
Dr. Taz: What has been the most successful in your practice with identifying root cause and then treating it?
Dr. Katiraei: I mean, it, in terms of like the efficacy of the outcomes, Uh, it's been quite good. Uh, I mean, just to give you context, we have a fairly sizable number of kids, you know, with the classic presentation of autism. So, the kids that started early on, like Touchwood, like, they're all doing great. Uh, so, now the, the ones that have gotten older, developing totally normal, no big sensory issues, integrating well, developing well.
Dr. Katiraei: So, I, I believe we were able to ward off that onset of autism in these kids, and I'm still watching them. But, in the older kids that actually manifested the signs of autism. There was one, uh, family, it was really cute, uh, older girl, about seven years old now, you know, the typical autistic kid, overwhelmed, aggressive, irritable, so forth.
Dr. Katiraei: And as we addressed the fungal imbalances and her gut inflammation and so forth, there was one day the dad goes to the mom and she's like, is Hannah okay? And she's, and she's like, yeah, why? What's, what's wrong? He's like, She's so calm. Is she sick? And she's like, no. She's doing really well.
Dr. Taz: It's amazing.
Dr. Katiraei: And, you know, it's beautiful because for me, this is who these children are.
Dr. Taz: Yeah.
Dr. Katiraei: You know, that, that is their essence. That, that beautiful, calm, like present, Happy. Happy. Right. Is, is who they are. When they're acting out, when they're exploding, when they're aggressive, when they're getting overwhelmed in the world.
Dr. Katiraei: That's the inflammation, that's the toxicity, that, that's the dysfunction. And there's so much we can do to help with this.
Dr. Taz: I'm curious, just clinically, what have you seen to be the most effective at turning that fungal toxicity around?
Dr. Katiraei: So, I'm using a lot of antifungals. Uh, I start these kids off with Nystatin just to kind of get a baseline of how well they respond.
Dr. Katiraei: And then, uh, I've been using a lot of vitreconazole. Uh, to Primarily address some of the aspergillus and the, you know, the mold. We think colonizing the gut and it has been a huge, uh, game changer.
Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, let's move on from autism for a second, but I do feel like this is related. There are a lot of children that might not necessarily develop autism, but they have what we call these very vague sensory systems.
Dr. Taz: Uh, excuse me, very vague sensory symptoms, right? They can't stand smell, sound, they can't put their socks on, you know, they are hyper reactive to different situations. You know, uh, you know, in a classroom they can't stand someone clicking their pen or typing on a computer. I feel like these are related a little bit and they go back to the gut.
Dr. Taz: What's your experience of first sensory and sensory processing disorders that are affecting many of our children and even our teenagers today to now, uh, sort of what I think is rampant, ADD, ADHD, that diagnosis is being made probably every second. You know, tell us the connection there. What's happening there?
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah, so, I could speak of this personally because I've had a lot of sensory issues and In looking back, I probably had some autistic features, uh, quite a few of them, uh, so if you look, uh, there's actually some literature that talks about how the degree of sensory sensitivity that an individual has can actually dictate it.
Dr. Katiraei: So, uh, their severity of autism. So there, there's a huge overlap. And if you look, this, this kind of explosion of autism that we have, there's a very large subset of children that we classify as autistic, where they can make eye contact, they're talking to you, they have all of the normal things, except when they go into social environments, they shut down.
Dr. Katiraei: Right? And when you really dig into it, The reason why these kids shut down is because of that intense sensory overwhelm. Environment is quiet, they're sitting at home with mom, whatever, they're fine. They can talk to mom, they can play with, you know, whatever. They're a little, you know, whatever. But overall, they do pretty well.
Dr. Katiraei: Put them in a school setting, put them in a loud birthday party or whatever else, they shut down. Why? Because you're so overwhelmed. By their environment and that sensory input that they get and what's fascinating is the same physiological processes that trigger the sensory problems Actually trigger anxiety so they trigger the amygdala's just to start changing in its circuitry So the perception of fear is distorted So, their, their threat response is off, and then they have baseline levels of anxiety on top of that, and they've got a sensory distortion.
Dr. Katiraei: So, this collectively causes these kids to go into these environments, and they're completely overwhelmed, they're, they're, they feel like they're being threatened, so they shut down. Uh, and, you know, to your point, in terms of how that looks as, you know, learning disabilities and ADHD and so forth, When a child is in a classroom, a lot of these kids, if you're working with them one on one, they do fine, right?
Dr. Katiraei: The parents are like, yeah, you know, if they get a tutor, oh my God, they're already great. No problem. But in a classroom setting, you know, there's the friend that's tapping their foot, the clock is ticking, there's a bird chirping outside, the air conditioner just turned on and their ability to control all of this sensory input that's coming in.
Dr. Katiraei: Is, is non existent. So they're simultaneously trying to focus on all of these different sensory experiences. And the feeling of their pants on their legs, right? And, you know, the tag on their shirt. And because of this, they can't focus on anything. And then you add to that, a lot of these kids have processing issues.
Dr. Katiraei: Because that same inflammatory response is disrupting their neural circuitry. So they have different processing issues. They have issues with working memory. They have issues with short term memory. So they can't retain the information, absorb the information, process the information, and just the ability for the information to come into their brain is being scrambled because of all of this.
Dr. Taz: I mean, this is something I've had a front seat to, to be honest. And, you know, you learn so much from sometimes your family members and your patients as well. But I will never forget, you know, my son had a ton of gut issues all through his first year of life to the point that he was failure to thrive as well.
Dr. Taz: And it was a struggle. I remember carrying him and he's like projectile vomiting and not growing and all these things. You know, somewhere in the journey, we figured out that gluten was an issue. His gut was an issue in general. We worked on his gut. We stabilized all those things. But you know, he enters preschool and he's kind of like a little superstar gets through the three hours a day.
Dr. Taz: Everybody loves him. He's still tiny, but he's doing well. Pre K or Kindergarten has to do a full day, the 8 3 day. And, you know, I was very busy. I was starting my practices at the time, so it didn't catch my attention right away. And initially, you know, they do this testing and scoring on him and stuff like that.
Dr. Taz: So when he first came in, he tested out really great, very strong, high scores, all this other stuff. But as the school year progressed, it's almost like he started a nosedive. And the teacher started saying things by the end of the fall semester, like, Oh, he's like falling asleep at the end of the day. Or he's, at 12 o'clock, he's done, like he's wiped out.
Dr. Taz: Or his handwritings. You know, getting sloppier and sloppier. And then by the spring, we do that same testing, and he had declined. The scores had dropped. And so that caught my attention, and I'm sitting with the school folks, and he's at this competitive private school in Atlanta, and sitting with the counselors, and I remember her looking up and going, Are you sure he's at the right school?
Dr. Taz: And I Burst out crying. I remember just like being hysterical. I'm like, what happened? Like, you know, and then there's the mom guilt and all these other things. Like I miss this and I miss that. And so drag them into our practice. We do every test that we're able to do. We find all this gut stuff going on with him still not resolved.
Dr. Taz: We work really hard on his. We work really hard on building up his nutrient profile and doing all these different things. At the same time, we pair him with an elementary school teacher who said, let me work with him, let's see what's going on. And then you can make your decision as to whether you want to pull him out or move on.
Dr. Taz: And so, I'll never forget her. I'm going to say her name because she's an angel. Her name is Sarah Chapman. I don't know if you're listening to this show today, but, but she's been a savior for so many parents. But she worked with him that summer. And by the end of that summer, she's like, he's fine. She's like, I don't know.
Dr. Taz: I don't know what you did, but he's fine. And he's totally capable of being here. He goes back in and he continues to this day. He's a sophomore, continues to do very well, you know, and, and shine. But that was a teaching point to me because what I found was that he was spilling fat, You know, he was having a lot of fat malabsorption, which was giving him fine motor weakness, which was taking his energy down, giving him malabsorption.
Dr. Taz: He wasn't absorbing his nutrients. But if he didn't have access to all that I have access to, he would have been labeled with learning disabilities, God knows what else, been pulled out of that school. You know, his, his chart course, life path would have been different. You know, so he, what he taught me, I've been able to to give to other patients, right, that have come through our practices since.
Dr. Taz: But this connection between our gut and how we absorb and the integrity of our microbiome and inflammation and learning is some that I feel like we're missing. in the conventional model of pediatrics, you know? So again, I'm thinking about every other parent out there who doesn't have access, who doesn't know what to screen or look for, you know, but they're seeing these sensory symptoms and they're seeing the issues of shutdown in a social situation.
Dr. Taz: How would you guide them? What would you tell them to do?
Dr. Katiraei: So, I mean, the first thing I would say is, is there's so much opportunity to help and I think the story that you shared is, is such a perfect example of what's possible in, you know, sadly, in our conventional world. We write these kids off and like well that kid just has a learning disability This kid just has ADHD and that's just their race in life.
Dr. Katiraei: And you know, I think the reason why this Conversation is so important is a lot of these kids give up on themselves.
Dr. Taz: Mm hmm,
Dr. Katiraei: right because self
Dr. Taz: esteem is tanked. Yeah
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah.
Dr. Taz: You know.
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah. Because they, they look and they, they see that their friends are learning better. And a lot of these kids also have dysregulation, right?
Dr. Katiraei: They're either too hyperactive or some of them can't control their emotions because it's all part of that same kind of can of worms. And they, they just come to call themselves, you know, I hate to say this, but they call themselves dumb. They call themselves stupid. They call themselves bad. And it's, it's the most God awful, heartbreaking thing to see.
Dr. Katiraei: But they genuinely believe that that's who they are. And the world around them believes that that's who they are. And the part that I believe is so sad is we all think that, well, that's just what is, which is the furthest from the truth. And I think the importance of this conversation is for parents to differentiate this is what's happening to my kid, but I actually don't know who my kid is.
Dr. Katiraei: I don't know how intelligent they are. I don't know what their capacity to learn is. I don't even know who they are as a person. And I tell this to the parents, the kids with anxiety disorders, with aggression, rage, you know, PANS, all of this neuroinflammatories. I tell them like, part of our journey together is to actually discover who your child is behind all this dysfunction.
Dr. Katiraei: What you're seeing is the dysfunction, it's, it's the inflammation, it's the toxicity. And behind all of this, behind this curtain, is actually your real child. And as we do the work, all of a sudden, a smarter version of them, just like what you saw, the more intelligent version. And I've had kids that Like, like what you experienced, you know, head of school pulls the parent aside.
Dr. Katiraei: I don't know if your child belongs here, private, fancy, you know, a rigorous school. Year, year and a half later, the headmaster is apologizing to the mom because now the kid is at the top of the class. Superstars. Superstar. And everyone's like, what the heck happened? Yeah. But this is, this is why this conversation is so
Dr. Taz: important, so important.
Dr. Taz: I feel for these kids, you know, and I'm going to move our conversation a little bit further along the timeline here. You know, now we have these kids that often get missed in infancy or get missed in the elementary years. Now they're entering middle school and high school. And we know that we have a mental health crisis amongst our adolescents, right?
Dr. Taz: Uh, currently around the world. I think it's Definitely. But I think it's around the world. You know, are we just compounding what we're missing in the earlier years as we enter now into the adolescent years? And now we're dealing with the hormone issues and some of those fluctuations. I'm curious as to what your perspective is of the mental health crisis in our teens.
Dr. Katiraei: I would absolutely agree with you that, you know, you, you have this inflammation, you have this toxicity, the neurological dysfunction that, that comes, all of that is there as the societal pressures increase, as the academic load increases, right? Pressure increases, yeah.
Dr. Taz: So competitive. I know, 15 and 16 year old right here.
Dr. Taz: Yeah.
Dr. Katiraei: So as, as all of that pressure increases and you've got the same child with the same struggles, with the same anxiety, with the same fears, with, you know, all of the same issues that were there, as you said, this gets compounded and now heaven's forbid you've got suicidality, you've got, you know, severe rage issues, anxiety disorders, whatever else.
Dr. Taz: And do you think those kids need to be medicated, or what is the right way to handle our teens today?
Dr. Katiraei: I believe parents need to do whatever they need to do to help their child. And if, in that moment, a medication is going to bring some form of relief, That's what needs to be. So I, I never tell a parent not to put their child on medication.
Dr. Katiraei: There are times I'm like, if one pill once a day is going to either calm your kid down, so they're, they're out of this like overt state of anxiety or something is going to help them feel more academically successful so they don't feel like a failure all the time. So be it. I believe the biggest problem is in conventional practice of medicine.
Dr. Katiraei: We stop there.
Dr. Taz: Yeah.
Dr. Katiraei: Or, we do this cocktail of, and I've had kids that are on like six different psychiatric medications. I know, I know. Risperdal and antidepressant and ADHD and then you give them guanfacine and whatever else to help them fall asleep. We're not doing a service to these kids. And we're certainly not doing a service to these kids by not asking what the heck is going on.
Dr. Katiraei: Right. We're not going to that root cause because most conventional doctors don't even have the training to look at this, these kinds of things, and that is what needs to change.
Dr. Taz: Definitely, you know, I've had such a journey as a mother, I think, of, of really Not labeling a child, not putting them into a hole, but trying to understand, like you're saying, who are you?
Dr. Taz: What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? What do you need physically? You know, cause that's really impacting you. And it's, it's humbling because you come in as this, like, you know, I'm a doctor. I've got like X number of years of education. You know, I know everything to like, shoot, I don't know anything.
Dr. Taz: You guys are teaching me a whole lot along the journey. How receptive, because you know, I'm, I have two that are getting ready for college over the next few years and you know, we actually started this thing in our practice called College Prep because I felt very strongly that before these kids go out into the world and we let them, you know, go to college where they're gonna be exposed to everything and do everything, you know, how can we educate them about their personal chemistry and making them, um, that like, you know, you're at risk for, you know, uh, gut dysfunction, you're at risk for inflammation, you're at risk for a severe mental health disorder because of X, Y, and Z.
Dr. Taz: Do you find that teens are receptive to these conversations? You know, they're a challenging group, but they're also, once they engage, they're They're a really receptive group. So is there a different way as a parent and as a physician to approach the teen, A, to keep them prepared for college and for life ahead, set them up as a healthy adult, and also to help them start to reverse whatever it is they might be dealing with?
Dr. Katiraei: You know, the teenage years are a really hard period of time because there's so much pressure to fit in. And, I mean, honestly speaking, the reason why I focus on, you know, childhood and adolescence is because I believe if we can get those kids well, then when they're in their teenage years, they're kind of in cruise control.
Dr. Katiraei: With the teens, you know, what I really try to do is Try to get through to them for them to see why eating differently or eating healthfully and, you know, doing X, Y, or Z things to improve their gut and physiology is so important. So, you know, sometimes they're not interested because their only priority is just to
Dr. Taz: Fit in.
Dr. Taz: Fit in. Right.
Dr. Katiraei: To, to, you know, feel included in their community and Sometimes whatever suffering they have to them is, is not as important as, you know, fitting in. Um, but I also find that sometimes the third conversation, I'm curious to see what, what, what you guys, uh, find, you know, it's the third or fourth conversation and the teen finally gets to the place where they're like, you know what, I'm tired of feeling this way and now I'm ready.
Dr. Katiraei: And, you know, it's, it's a baby step. You, you, you give them a few things and they're like, okay, yeah, I kind of feel better. Okay. I'll do it. Fine. Fine. Fine. I'll get rid of gluten. I love it.
Dr. Taz: Or like my daughter who like Amazon packages are arriving at our house. Like, mom, did you know that glutathione will help my brain?
Dr. Taz: I'm like, are you kidding me? We have these at the practice. You know, it's like every other week, she's on Tik Tok. We just need to take over Tik Tok. That's what it is. Like a Tik Tok takeover will probably take care of the teen issue right there. But yeah, no, I mean, I think they do respond once, once they start to feel better.
Dr. Taz: They don't like to be different. I think that is an absolute, but I do think that the more, but they're engaged. If we can educate them, if we can show them data, if we can show them numbers, and if we can kind of equip them, and I would encourage every parent, it's worth the time and energy. to walk that journey, you know, with your teen before, especially they go to college, because whether it's hormone health or mental health or, you know, just their overall vitality and cognitive health, I think it makes a difference for sure.
Dr. Taz: So I want to, I have so much I could talk to you about and I'm already running out of time. I hate this. So anyhow, one of the things I do, I'm so curious about. So I love Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine because they actually think about the temperament of the child. In functional and integrated medicine we spend a lot of time on the biochemistry, right, and on some of these type of things.
Dr. Taz: But these other systems of medicine get more into the spirit component of a child. I think one of the biggest disconnects, and one of the things that I've had to learn as a mother too, is that as we're learning our children, which I think really is the job of parenthood, as we're learning our our Children.
Dr. Taz: How can we best, especially if you have a sensory child, especially if you have a child who has high anxiety, how do you create kind of like a healing home and how do you pick the right educational path for them? You know, when you're trying to put all this together, because I don't think medicine and health is separate from their relationships in the home to their education at school, you know, and so, you know, a type a highly competitive.
Dr. Taz: School might not be the best fit for the highly anxious, highly sensory child. How do you help parents make those decisions?
Dr. Katiraei: So, I, I think there's two ways to look at this. Uh, the first is being dialed into your child and, and being dialed into what is the environment that's going to help them flourish.
Dr. Katiraei: Because you can also have, you know, the highly competitive, highly intelligent child. You put them into a school where everyone is expected to do the same thing and they're, you know, two grade levels ahead and they get bored out of their wits. And they're the ones that are now looking like ADHD because they're bored.
Dr. Katiraei: So I think it can go both ways. And for parents to step back and say, Hey, is this a good environment and fit for my child? I think there are. A lot of people who are in parts of the country where they don't always have that luxury, right? There's maybe one private school, one or two public schools, and that's it.
Dr. Katiraei: So part of what I really believe is important is for us to help give that child the resilience where they can thrive wherever they are. Because in LA, you know, we're blessed to have a thousand different schools. Like, there's a school for every kid and, you know, we have that luxury. Not everyone does. And there are, I've found, for some of these kids who have the sensory issues and they grow anxious, if you just put them on some simple anti inflammatories that has PEA, luteolin, and this enzyme that breaks histamine down, a DAO enzyme, 60 percent of the time, that with some D and zinc.
Dr. Katiraei: is enough to actually calm down their nervous system so they can be more comfortable in these environments. So that they can thrive and have the resiliency to be in whatever environment that's the only environment that's available to them. to be able to succeed and do well.
Dr. Taz: What about the other modalities?
Dr. Taz: Let's say they're willing to take those things. What modalities do you really see these kids respond to more when we think about what's offered? There's so much out there right now, right? There's everything from like craniosacral therapy, acupuncture, yoga, you know, breath work, meditation, like what, what do you find some of these more sensory anxious kids responding to a little bit better?
Dr. Katiraei: So neurofeedback is very, very helpful. Uh, so for sure that, you know, there are various devices that can also help them kind of calm down and regulate. But if those sensory issues and that anxiety is physiological, and you don't address the physiology, you could do multiple rounds of neurofeedback, and I found this, the kids calm down only for their nervous system to bounce back.
Dr. Katiraei: Or, for instance, I, I'm 100 percent a fan of sensory integration and occupational therapy and all of this. I did it on myself, my daughter did it, like, big fan. Right. But OT can't address the inflammatory issues that cause these sensory things. So while OT can be great, occupational therapy can be great to get the child to be better wired into their body, right?
Dr. Katiraei: And get integrated, if that inflammation is there, if you haven't taken care of the gut, if you haven't calmed down the inflammation, all of this stuff is like you're pouring a bucket on the fire, except the gas line that's driving that fire is still going and you keep looking, you're like, why is this thing catching on fire?
Dr. Katiraei: So you've got to address that root cause.
Dr. Taz: I mean, I've seen this too, firsthand. If that fundamental physiology isn't fixed, then they continue to have the issue. And it only, so I think for parents like running around, there's a lot of running around that everybody's doing, like this appointment and that appointment.
Dr. Taz: I feel like the most efficient use of energy and resources is first to find the root, like really work with somebody who can help you identify what that root cause is so that you can build from there, you know, moving forward. And hopefully You know, if anyone's watching or listening, they can at least have some comfort in knowing that there's a strategy behind this and dumping everything on it.
Dr. Taz: Sometimes it's just exhausting, you know, and I'm sure you've seen that as well.
Dr. Katiraei: Well,
Dr. Taz: this has been incredible. I could talk to you for probably another hour, but I know that you're working on some things. So I want you to share what you're working on and I think it's super exciting. So share a little bit with our audience of some of what you've been putting your time and attention to and how people can find you.
Dr. Katiraei: Sure. Uh, so about four years ago, what I realized is a lot of people want access to this kind of care. A lot of people are actually looking for these kinds of answers. And there are a lot of providers that want to provide this care, but they don't have the training, they don't have the time to get the training.
Dr. Katiraei: And we've got this big gap where a lot of providers are ready. And a lot of patients are interested, but that connection and ultimately the training to make that happen isn't there. And, you know, when I looked critically at what I do, and I'm sure you've seen this in yourself, at the end of the day, we're just very fancy pattern recognition machines, right?
Dr. Katiraei: Yeah, yeah. We ask questions that certain people don't know to ask. We elicit information that Not all providers know to elicit, and through that we identify patterns in what's going on, similar to what we talked about, like everything we talked about were patterns, right? Colleague and kid shows up like this, right?
Dr. Katiraei: These are all patterns. Technology and AI are way better than us in identifying patterns, right? We know that for a fact. So part of what we're doing is bringing technology to this conversation with the intention of using AI to essentially help providers that are interested gain superpowers. in finding the root cause of these things and then empowering them with the tools they can then share with families to address the root cause of this.
Dr. Katiraei: And with that, also bringing an element of efficiency. Because in our functional holistic medicine world, you know, 60 to 90 minutes per patient is, is the norm, right? Because that's how long it takes for us to ask the questions and go through everything to then figure out how to help. And that automatically means our care is expensive, which then means a lot of people can't access it.
Dr. Katiraei: So, part of what we're trying to do is automate the heck out of every single step that an integrative provider needs to go through to do their thing. So the provider does the high level human thinking, right? The human connection, that piece. Spirit,
Dr. Taz: the spirit part of it. Yeah, and
Dr. Katiraei: all the scut work that we right now presume is a part of holistic medicine is automated.
Dr. Katiraei: So now a really excellent holistic consult 15 minutes, in 20 minutes. which then brings out the cost of care, increases access, but at the same time the, the quality of the care is still really, really high because now every provider can think like you and I even better because they're, they're seeing everything that's there and they know what are the best tools to implement.
Dr. Katiraei: And that's how I believe we can make a big difference by really changing these elements.
Dr. Taz: Well, you and I are on such a similar mission. You know, I too believe that this needs to be care that's offered everywhere, that we need to educate families on, you know, what's happening with their children so that they can identify and jump into this conversation much earlier, not get stonewalled in the exam room.
Dr. Taz: And so I'm excited about what you're doing. There's probably a way for us to collaborate too, moving forward. But for anyone who's watching and listening today, how do they find you? How do they connect with you? What's the best way for them to learn more?
Dr. Katiraei: So, uh, my practice is called Holistic Kids with a W, uh, I'm on Instagram also with Holistic Kids, uh, and then the AI that we're building is Holistic Minds, also with a W.
Dr. Katiraei: With
Dr. Taz: a W. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I hope for any parent out there who is, Struggling. I've been there. I know what that's like. Really getting confused and thinking that you can't find answers or getting, you know, frustrated because your child's getting mislabeled as something.
Dr. Taz: I get it. And there are answers. We hope that this at least is a starting point. So thank you guys for joining us today. And thank you, Dr. K. I appreciate it.
Dr. Katiraei: Thank you for having me. Thank you for creating the space for, you know, us to share this information. You know, the one thing that I want to share is There's so much hope.
Dr. Katiraei: There's so much that could be done. And if, if someone is a parent whose child is struggling and in their heart they know like, hey, there's, there's something off. This, this, this is not my kid. And a lot of parents know in their heart like there's just something off. Don't be afraid to ask and don't be afraid to push and don't be afraid to be an advocate for your child.
Dr. Katiraei: And if someone says, no, this is what is, it's fine. I mean, there are thousands of providers that think differently. And it's just a matter of saying, you know what, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to help my child and I'm going to find whoever I need to get my child the care that they deserve.
Dr. Taz: I love that.
Dr. Taz: And we didn't have time to go into this, but we're all only as happy as our healthiest child, right, at the end of the day. And when children are healthy, the family is healthy. And so I'm a lot about creating whole families, right? Like whole families, you know, are what make us thrive in, in community. And so I think I really feel for families that are struggling or when the peace of the home is disrupted and, you know, they're just going through through that sort of experience.
Dr. Taz: But I love that there is hope there are answers. And it's a lot about building a team and and using all the resources that are out there. So excited, excited for what's ahead for everybody. Yes,
Dr. Katiraei: me too.
Dr. Taz: All right, we ask every guest this, so we have to ask you this too. What makes you whole?
Dr. Katiraei: What makes me whole is first and foremost, my family.
Dr. Katiraei: Like my kids, just every time I see them smile, every time I see them doing well, my wife and just the love that she brings into our world. And, you know, I, I would say as an extension to that, the families that I, I get to work with in, in You know just being a part of their journey and to see the healing Uh that they have so rewarding that to me is what gives me so much meaning and ultimately You know makes my life whole
Dr. Taz: I love that.
Dr. Taz: Well, thank you. for joining us today
Dr. Katiraei: My pleasure. Thank you.
Dr. Taz: Thank you so much for listening and watching today's episode of Whole Plus. Be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcasts.
Dr. Taz: And don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. TazMD. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.
