hol+ by Dr. Taz MD

Devi Brown: [00:00:00] We're kind of taught societally to just go hard. If you're not getting your way or if something isn't happening the way you want to, you should push hard and force it until it does. It's like you put your needs last. You put the things that have happened to you, to the back of your head, and then you somehow feel deficient because there are these physical issues that you're dealing with, or you feel like there's this innate brokenness to you and your experience.

This isn't sustainable for a well-lived life.

Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.

Devi Brown: It is not possible to only heal your mind and not heal your body too. Thank you. You have to do both.

Dr. Taz: Welcome to Whole Plus, the podcast that embraces and tackles the holistic way, bringing it all together, science, research, innovations and technology, and our collective human experience.

This is where science and Spirit come together. I'm Dr. Taz, your host and a double board certified medical doctor and integrative health expert and nutritionist and an acupuncturist. I'm also the founder and CEO of whole Plus. A digital and clinical platform where [00:01:00] my team and I practice evidence-based holistic medicine every single day.

I know and I hear all the health and wellness noise that's out there. I want this show to be the one to empower you with the knowledge you need to heal. Not just your body, but your relationships, your communities, and our world. Welcome to Whole Plus. I spend a lot of time on the show talking about the connection between our five bodies, our physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, community, body, and how they all work together to really make us whole.

Well imagine my excitement when my next guest can speak the same language as me and put together a plan to get us all there. Please join me in welcoming Debbie Brown. Debbie has touched the lives of countless people, including renowned artists, athletes, and executives of global corporation. She served as the Chief Impact officer of Chopra Global before founding her own company, Debbie Brown Wellbeing.

She's currently the host of the Leading Spirituality Podcast [00:02:00] deeply well. She's the author of Crystal Bliss and Living in Wisdom and proudly serves on the board of directors at the Omega Institute for Holistic Studies. Please join me in welcoming Debbie to the show. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show today.

I have been an admirer of yours for such a long time, and I know we've connected before and we've met before, but we all have journeys and life takes us in different directions. And I know you've had quite a journey as well. So I am thrilled to bring your story to our audience so that they can be inspired by all the amazing things that you've done.

One of the things that you've been talking about recently is burnout in women. Yeah. And I feel like that conversation is picking up a lot of steam as women are acknowledging that they're burnt out, that they're feeling burnt out. They're a little bit confused, honestly, about their role. You know, like, do we stay home?

Do we work? How do we do both? It's uh, it's killing me. It's driving me crazy. And you know, we don't need to get into all those sort of philosophical conversations necessarily, but you have a [00:03:00] unique take on burnout. Tell me what you think burnout really is.

Devi Brown: Oh my gosh. I opened it. So yeah. And also just so honored to be with you, Dr.

TAs. Thank you. Such an admirer of your work and just really grateful to be here with you. Thank you. You know it, it's so interesting my, I feel like I have been evolving my understanding of burnout. When I first started talking about burnout, it was probably 10 to 11 years ago. Um, and it was after I had gotten a shingles diagnoses, um, a couple of years after.

And I was just in a career where I was wearing that badge of busy. It was the height. Of girl boss culture, right? Yes. Oh yeah. And I left that world 10 years ago and started on a whole new journey because I realized like, this isn't sustainable for a well-lived life. Mm-hmm. And I really started looking at the frameworks of that.

And so it's been really exciting for me. Um, 'cause when I kind of first had that epiphany for myself, I remember just the zeitgeist wasn't on [00:04:00] that rhythm. And so it was more seen as if you worked less, that it was a sign of like lack of ambition or you couldn't get it done.

Dr. Taz: Right. Right.

Devi Brown: And so many, you're weak or you're weak in some way.

Right. And, and it's been really interesting 'cause I, I love to specifically look at the ways that women martyr themselves or look at these badges of busy as, um. Kind of interchangeable with the sense of self-worth. Mm. And why that can never really lead to a genuine, authentic, felt sense of worth. Because we leave our bodies behind and we're looking to turn off part of ourselves to really connect to a far more patriarchal view of how we should treat our bodies, of how we should look at our lives.

And we lose some of, I think, our innate wisdom and our intuition that lives with within us about what we should be doing to care for ourselves. So, you know, I think burnout, to me is always like our body, like really coming to our aid. [00:05:00]

Dr. Taz: Hmm. And

Devi Brown: it's looking to wake us up to say, Hey, please pay attention to me.

Something's going on here. And I think when we get too caught up in societal validation, when we get. Too caught up in outsourcing our confidence. It's so much easier to ignore all of those signs because we're looking for applause from strangers. Right. Or we're looking for, you know, applause from the people that we work with or our families.

And it will never just be an authentic felt experience. That's true for us, unless we actually care

Dr. Taz: about caring about ourselves. It's interesting, I, I don't know if you said it in this book, living in Wisdom or you said it in, in one of your others, but, um, one of the things that you've said is that burnout is actually grief and disguise.

Yeah. What's the cost of not acknowledging grief and, you know, how do we tap into what we might be grieving?

Devi Brown: And you know what? Ugh. Thank you for this question. 'cause I'm really [00:06:00] passionate about grief for so many reasons, and I do wanna highlight that. And that is absolutely what this book is about. This book is about the dance between grief and joy that we're all doing every day.

Mm-hmm. And finding an acceptance with it so we can really work with it. Um. But you know, in the first example I gave it, it's so interesting because if you get to the root of the root or the original wound of why we seek validation, it's usually rooted in unprocessed grief about an attention or an experience we didn't get at other parts of our lives.

So grief is so multifaceted, um, which is sometimes why I think it's hard for people to recognize that that might be what the suppressed feeling is. 'cause we're so used to culturally looking at grief as you know, being. Usually just strictly related to deep, profound loss, you know, or some of those once in a lifetime losses that we carry that haunt us.

But grief is [00:07:00] also things that happen to us in childhood, things that didn't happen for us in childhood. There's grief about relationships. There's grief about a feeling of unmet, you know, success. Yeah. So a lot of times these things that, you know, these, these very clear whistles our bodies are making, we completely bypass them and plow through them because we want that other thing so deeply.

But it's really to try to fill the void.

Dr. Taz: Of grief that actually exists inside of us. What are some of those signs and symptoms that you see people ignore or that maybe even you, yourself ignored? I know you have a story, we're about to get into it, but like what are some of those like whispers? Yeah. That I think we kind of plow through and like shut down because we want something or we think we want something and you know, we go after it, but we're really not processing what we need.

Devi Brown: Yeah. You know, and for each of us, of course this can be so different. It's such a vast spectrum of how our unique [00:08:00] bodies respond. But for me personally, whenever I feel highly irritated and exhausted, I know that there is something that's out of con, out of congruence. Mm. The way I understand purpose to move in my life is through alignment and ease.

So. We're kind of taught societally to just go hard. If you're not getting your way or if something isn't happening the way you want to, you should push hard and force it right until it does. Right. And I don't believe that that is everyone's actual path. It is absolutely not mine. I found that when I force things, sure I may be able to eventually get them, but it's actually probably not what is intended for me.

And now I'm on a detour that could take years to get out of before I find the most aligned path. Um, so for me, whenever I have a high level of irritation, that is not my innate setting. So I know that's a marker, that there is something [00:09:00] that is. Out of alignment. If I am exhausted, that definitely means something is out of alignment, especially if it's not a short-term exhaustion because I'm just trying to see something through that just happens.

You know, I'm in a season where it is gonna take a little more time. Um, but kind of monitoring your overall feeling. Um, my skin looks more shallow. Mm. Interesting. I have bags in my eyes. That's when a lot of my, like nutritional needs are not being fully met when I'm not self-honoring. Um, I developed, uh, and I have had.

Actual diagnosed exhaustion at two different points in my life. And what I noticed every time before I got to that point, I would get a twitch in my right eye. Mm-hmm. Yep. And it would start out just occasionally where you're just like, oh, what is that glitch in the matrix? Like, what just happened? And then it starts happening constantly.

And then I was finding that like, oh, I'm like holding my eye open a little bit sometimes and taking a deep breath. That to me, is always a marker that [00:10:00] you have to get in front of this fast. Wow. Um, and you've

Dr. Taz: been diagnosed with exhaustion in the past. Yeah. Wow. And I know that you've had an issue with chronic pain, right.

And I would definitely love to hear that story and how that's evolved. But it's interesting, one of the things that we talk about here on Whole Plus is the connection between, you know, medical science and health and all those things, but with our emotional and spiritual body. And how when there's disconnection between those two facets, that leads to dis-ease, right?

Yeah. Or it leads to symptoms. And you know, you've already started to do that in this conversation right off the bat. Burnout, which is a very modern, trending term, is equivalent to grief, right? That's a connection that everyone needs to understand. But you've had to deal with this, you know, kind of in your life.

So in dealing with chronic pain and trying to understand your body, what have you learned?

Devi Brown: Oh my God, what a journey. Uh, first I wanna say like Dr. Taz, I am so [00:11:00] excited that we even get to have conversations like this and that there are now really in just a handful of recent years, studies that are supporting the very unique and specific journey of women.

Yes. With pain.

Dr. Taz: Yes.

Devi Brown: Because I do not take for granted that all of our ancestors, all of that were part of the, the female species have been dying in a lot of pain a lot earlier. Mm-hmm. Um. A lot more disconnected from themselves, from hope, from happiness, from love.

Dr. Taz: Yep.

Devi Brown: And it just, it just is, you know, as I really dove into my journey of chronic pain, I was really looking at, you know, the history of my mom.

A beautiful woman who has had to work really hard her whole life has kind of been fighting her whole life and was always hurting. But doctors, she'd go in diligently to different doctor's offices, do her own research, especially once the internet was invented and there was nothing, uh. [00:12:00] That you could really find, even when you tried and you'd go into these doctor's offices and very often, you know, they, they'd push you aside, especially as women.

They'd claim that you're overreacting or imagining it. Hysterical.

Dr. Taz: The hysterical, hysterical women with our uterus, you know, that needed a hysterectomy. It all. Yes. That's a long history of such a long history. Such a long, long history. Yeah. And

Devi Brown: it seems so far behind, but my mom, thank God, is still with us.

Mm-hmm. And active and young. And this was her story as an adult, you know? And so imagine our grandparents and the women that came before them with really no help whatsoever.

Dr. Taz: Debbie, I went through this in my twenties. That was 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Being dismissed and being told hysterical, anxious, depressed, all those things.

Whereas it was very real medical conditions that I was dealing with. Very

Devi Brown: real. And there just were not studies being done on women's bodies. Correct. And a lot of doctors were not really, um, arming themselves with latest [00:13:00] understanding of a holistic view of how a person operates. Correct. And I, I, I, I really am so glad we're saying that plainly as I get into this, because.

So many women have already given up and don't think to go to the doctor now. Right. 'cause they may not know that things have changed and are changing. I myself have just gotten answers this year. Wow. I have been, and I'm 40 now. I have been searching to understand my body since I was 16 mm. And I first began having symptoms of fibromyalgia.

Mm-hmm. Though it would be decades before I found that when I first started having responses in my body that were presenting like autoimmune, that I didn't get my actual diagnosis of until this year.

Dr. Taz: Mm.

Devi Brown: And all of it happened because this past November I was diagnosed with exhaustion. And keep in mind, I am someone that sleeps eight to nine hours a night.

Yeah. I am in my soft girl era. Right. I do not overwork. [00:14:00] Right. I love that. Yeah. I do not over care. I do not over process. I'm a mom. I take my health incredibly seriously. Yeah. So I can show up for my child and client. So I, I get eight to nine hours of sleep a night. I meditate at minimum an hour a day. I do sauna, I do red light therapy, I get chiropractic work, acupuncture, like all of it.

I take phenomenal care of myself. And I was still in daily constant pain. And so back in November I was out of the country for two speaking engagements. And as I'm getting prepared to begin one. I just lost my ability to walk. Like all of a sudden my back kind of hunched over and I could not put any weight on my feet whatsoever.

And I had to be in the bed for six days in another country and I couldn't get back on a plane. And so eventually I had to obviously get back to my, my son. I was given all of these pain meds, so steroids, [00:15:00] pain shots, all of these things. Mm-hmm. I had never taken before. I had never been on medication for this daily pain.

And for those that also have chronic pain, many of us know at some point you stop talking about it. Right. Especially when you don't get answers. So it's been years since I've said out loud, my back hurts, or I'm too tired or I can't do it. Um, because it becomes, you know, grief right. That people don't understand.

And so. Having that opportunity to have this exhaustion gave me a feeling I'd never had in my whole life, which was being in a pain-free body because I was on medication. I didn't want to have to stay on medication. But I did say, okay, maybe now it's time to go back to Western Medicine. I, aside from my O-B-G-Y-N, I hadn't seen a Western medical doctor in at least a decade.

Dr. Taz: Mm.

Devi Brown: So I started the process of reaching out. And

Dr. Taz: many people, by the way, not to interrupt you, but many people have that story that Yeah, they gave [00:16:00] up kind of on the Western Medical doctor 'cause Absolutely. They weren't getting a lot of value out of those encounters or experiences. Yeah. So a lot of women just maintain their OB, GYN, but don't have anybody else on their team.

Devi Brown: Wow. And it's like, and we pay for insurance. Right. Every year. Yeah. Everyone pays for the insurance. But because I think at a point, I know for me, I, I was tired of. Feeling like I was in a space and you know, my doctor was being condescending. Yeah. Or just dismiss. I hear that all the time. Or dismissive or moving me out.

And as someone that is a meta learner that loves to research and think and process, I have made it my business to understand my body. Right. Right. I have, what else would I be doing if not researching myself and what I was going through? Right. And so I'd been finding so many other methods that were helping me, but I still didn't have answers.

And so I did a lot of trauma work on myself to work on, you know, past adverse experiences that helped me understand, you know, what [00:17:00] research is now beginning to support those links between, especially early childhood experiences. Yes. And chronic pain and autoimmune disease in the body. So when I finally got my list of specialists and I started going into the doctors, I went in with a lot more confidence and a lot more patients mm-hmm.

To get my point across. Yeah. I was actually met with this amazing experience where the doctors that I was seeing were completely open to really talking about this with me, amazing spending time. They themselves had been really illuminated since COVID and so much of the research that was coming to them, they had questions.

Mm-hmm. They were more open, so it felt like so much more of a symbiotic and harmonious relationship, like we were in collaboration with finding out what my needs were. And so through that process and you know, you still have to go through a lot of processes, we were actually able to now see through different blood work, through different MRIs, [00:18:00] what my issues were, and now I'm on the path to meeting that need holistically as I had been doing, and now also with western medicine and treatments.

And it's been really revolutionary for my life. That's incredible.

Dr. Taz: Now, as you've, as you look at that journey, you know, what did you have to tap into? And I'm curious, how much is the motivation for living in wisdom? You know, like what was going on in your personal life? How much of that did you have to tap into and try to understand what all the inner connections are?

Autoimmune disease, by the way I always tell my patients is that. It's like at least three hits, right? Am I always trying to figure out these triangles? Like, okay, is it your hormones? Is it your stress or your trauma? And is it something else? And like, what is the story for each person? And we're always trying to puzzle piece it together.

To your point as well, there's something called the ACE test. It's the adverse childhood event test, um, that you can ask for in your doctor's office or ask to be administered. It's a survey. It's a questionnaire. And what we've found, and I know you've looked at the research, [00:19:00] that people that you know, have had a lot of ACE events or adverse childhood events have a lot more autoimmune disease and inflammatory conditions.

Right? And so they need to go on a path, and this is where western medicine often fails, is that it's not like, okay, take this one medication. You're gonna be okay because it's three hits because it's connected to childhood. Some people would even say it's connected intergenerationally, right? Yes. Because you have all these deep, deep connections.

It needs a holistic plan. So it needs, it needs living and wisdom. It needs like. A plan at every level of the body. How did you put that plan together for you? It's just

Devi Brown: like, I hope everyone listening is like feeling the power of that. 'cause that alone, how much freedom is in that? You know, so often, and I think especially for women, because we've all been on this kind of.

Multi century tract of martyrdom. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like this, over performance emotionally, mentally, physically, um, spiritually in all the [00:20:00] ways and caretaking so often it's like you put your needs last, you put the things that have happened to you, to the back of your head, and then you somehow feel deficient because there are these physical issues that you're dealing with, or you feel like there's this innate brokenness to you and your experience.

And to just be able to know that there are bridges that make this make sense, I think is so profound and important. Um, and it's just life changing. Um, you know, I, I think that part of it, I had really been meeting those spiritual needs and those kind of more therapized needs and spending a lot of time with that my whole life.

You know, I am a trauma-informed wellbeing educator. Yep. So. My life is really dedicated to living my work in that way. And I was finding, and I, and I think this is what so many I've heard have also encountered when you're on this like healing journey. Yeah. Spiritually, right? Yeah. You're coming into a lot of these [00:21:00] spaces.

But if these spaces don't understand what it is to live with complex trauma, um, which is very often, I remember in my first teacher training, um, there was this brief mention that said. You may encounter someone that has served in the military or has been to war. In that case they might have PTSD and you might need to take like a different approach when you ask them to close their eyes or do these other things.

That was the only mention of having like a hard experience or why it might be triggering to meditate. But then as I was out kind of in the field teaching people and I'm in rooms full of people that can't close their eyes, that began, began my journey to saying, what else is going on here? Right? And often what it is, is if you're going into certain kind of quote unquote wellness love and light spaces, but you have had significant hardship or multiple hardships and maybe haven't even spoken any of them out loud, those spaces can make you feel so [00:22:00] deficient

Dr. Taz: as

Devi Brown: if you are the person that is blocking your growth and healing.

And you may not know that you actually need to find community that is trauma informed so that you can have a more patient and multi-pronged and more maybe companion assisted educated process for learning some wellness practices. I deep dive that into that a ton in my book by sharing with people what are the barriers you may have to meditation to yoga?

Why could it feel hard or scary for you to do something that everyone else seems to do with so much peace and ease? So

Dr. Taz: let's flip it to, you know, and I think we as doctors are guilty of this honestly, and you know. I could share with you a treatment plan from one of our clinics. We have a whole section on like mind, body, and what we recommend, and it's based in, you know, some patient matching through Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine and that type of thing.

Yeah. But it is, it is generic in the sense that [00:23:00] we think all meditation's good. We think all breath work is good. We think all yoga is good. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like of course these things are good. They're all lowering cortisol and they're resetting the nervous system. What are we missing?

Devi Brown: It's so, it's so important to have people in this conversation who have been on a path of self-healing, who have had hard adverse experiences because I think so many facilitators and doctors.

Have nothing but the best meaning and intention for the people in front of them. Right. But if you don't know what it is to be scared of closing your eyes, it would be very hard to inform for a person that is, or that you didn't have more questions for, why that could actually be a significant barrier that could at first set them back or make them think they could never approach this work.

Um, one of the first experiences I had with that was I was in a group of women. I was just beginning my teaching career, and I asked everyone, okay, everyone sit [00:24:00] comfortably, gently close your eyes. You know, I'm doing everything I'm taught, and then 70% of the room is looking back at me. Not just with open eyes, but with scared open eyes.

And as a teacher, your first thought is like, Hey, why don't, why aren't people listening to me? Right, right, right. Like you, you're getting your ego of like, what's going on except close your eyes. But to actually support yourself by being curious about the experiences people have that this is hard for allows you to be more informed of, okay, if I'm noticing that, or if I'm noticing as I'm giving a talk, one person's leg is shaking violently in the front seat, or someone is standing there frozen with tears coming down their face.

How do I meet that need? Mm. How do I change my language? How do I invite them into a different starting point? So for instance, if you are someone that has been traumatized or assaulted, closing your eyes in a room full of people is terrifying, right? You're in the dark. [00:25:00] You don't know who is around you.

You, you don't necessarily have close connection with those people. Or even if you did, you may have been abused by someone close to you. So what's a way to start bringing yourself into a position where you could try that experience? I ask people to just hold a low gaze. Allow yourself instead of having your eyes brightly wide open, which won't give you any meditative feeling if you bring them.

Like just slowly, slightly open. And then just notice your peripherals. What can you see around you? Okay. Can you still feel safety? Can you connect to a scent? Can you connect to a feeling? Can you tap yourself while you're doing this process? You being still, and quiet perfectly is far less important than you being able to slowly teach your body that has never known how to relax.

How to relax. Mm. And so when we're in spaces, there is a difference between people. And I'm not saying that this is hierarchal, but there's a difference between [00:26:00] people who are seeking out wellness and wellbeing because they have life friction. And there are people that are seeking out wellness and wellbeing because they have significant trauma.

Trauma. Gotcha. And so both need to be approached slightly differently and, and I think if we have the space and the patience to ask more questions to also. Take time to study and ask about experiences that aren't naturally ours and stop assuming that everyone around us has come to this work from the same path.

I think we really have the opportunity to offer a lot more dignity and respect to people that are looking to heal and grow. So

Dr. Taz: in our medical exam rooms or in our healing journeys, you know, with whichever type of practitioner, what are the questions that you, the patient should be asking or the information you should be revealing and we, the doctors or practitioners should be asking.

Devi Brown: Yeah. [00:27:00] Wow. Thank you for that question. You know, I've had, I've had two experiences and I think I, I also want to really empower the, the potential, um, patient to know. We all know when someone has an open heart to listening. Mm-hmm. And when someone is already coming in making assumptions or assessments and really it does not have the ability to hold space for bigger emotional experiences.

So I just want to let everyone know, trust your gut on if it's a safe space to expose your life to someone. 'cause it can be really defeating to finally have the guts to tell someone what you've been through and they don't know how to hold space for you. Correct. Or

Dr. Taz: they dismiss

Devi Brown: you. Or they dismiss you.

Right. Or, or they just give you a quick response and don't really settle into like the depth of what they heard. But I will say in my experiences in the last handful of years, like I have been brought to such [00:28:00] deep emotion and tears because a doctor has. Just reflected back to me the depth of what I've shared, and now I, I never had these questions before, but now doctors are asking aside from just, Hey, did your mom or dad have heart disease?

Did they have high blood pressure? They're asking, did you have two parents in the household? Did you witness or experience traumatic events in your younger life? Did you, were you in poverty as a young person? Did you have access to education? Were you bullied? Were you, there are, there are very investigative and curious questions about developmentally, where were your needs perhaps not met.

Mm. You know, interesting. Um, did you have the ability to have experiences that fortify your own resilience or not? Right? And those, the answers to those questions can really tell doctors so much if they're informed with some of these incredible new understandings, right. Of the links between trauma [00:29:00] and the body.

You know, another thing too, that was a big part of me figuring out what my autoimmune was. We have dormant genes in our bodies, right?

Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.

Devi Brown: Now there is science that is showing and proving that some mental health conditions and some diseases are activated because a dormant gene was activated by a traumatic experience.

So sometimes you have these dormant genes and you're lucky to grow up in a beautifully loving, you know, home. Yeah. And so it's never an issue for you. Other people might have those same dormant genes and it gets flipped on like a light switch. Yeah. 'cause you've had a really hard experience and maybe you've had a hard experience that wasn't also met with nurturance and care.

And so it's like. We're always asking, right? Like the that question, like is it nature, is it nurture? And it's like it's a lot of both. Both. Yeah, it's both.

Dr. Taz: Yeah. I talk about that all the time. You know, so part of this is recognition of what's happening and what's going on, right? That there has been [00:30:00] trauma, that there's an issue, it's connected to the disease process that's manifesting that we need to go on a healing journey.

You know, part, you know, part of the problem is the recognition on both the part of the patient and the doctor. You've been down that journey, but the other part of the problem is how do you start these journeys? Yeah. How do you begin and there's so much out there, right? Part of my motivation, honestly, for even doing the show is like, there's just so much information out there, but it needs to be brought into a lens where it's crystallized and personalized for you so you can start your journey and you really know what the right first step is for you versus.

For somebody else. I'm curious like how you would advise somebody to begin that type of journey and to know what to begin to do. And then kind of a backup to that question is, what are the biggest myths that you have seen out there in the wellness biohacking, high achieving performance driven community that we live in today?

Oh my God. Yeah. We're gonna turn our age back a hundred [00:31:00] years and even though we're not at a hundred yet, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like what have you, what have you seen and what would you tell people? I

Devi Brown: think

Dr. Taz: the biggest

Devi Brown: myth is that you can do it with just one thing. Hmm. With just one modality. Right.

And I think for some, it's this idea that you can do all of this with just biohacking or just focusing on your physical fitness and making your body, you know, just like pristine. Um, same thing with I think this idea that you can. Really deeply be on your healing journey and only go to cognitive therapy, talk therapy.

You know, we, when you know, or you at least have the intuitive sense that there is work to be done to have a higher quality of life in any capacity. It's always gonna be holistic. Mm-hmm. It's always gonna be meeting. Right. Thank you. That four pronged need. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, it is always going [00:32:00] to be all of it.

And I think that's why, you know, at least in my approach to self-care, I was always kind of telling people you have to do something in each of those categories. But when it comes to being on the journey, no, it's not gonna come from one thing. It is not gonna just be maybe that one person you really connected their methodology or their work or you know, just seeing a medical doctor or just going to one kind of a therapist.

It is okay if it takes your whole life, this is your life's work, right? Like you are your own life's work. So it doesn't have to be done as fast and as perfect as possible. And also be really curious and begin your own research with yourself. I think, you know, the first threshold is. Being honest with yourself that there is a need that you have mm-hmm.

That there is a certain level of suffering you're experiencing in some capacity, then it would be looking at, and, and this is harder, and I absolutely, absolutely defer to [00:33:00] everyone's personal therapist or supportive community, right. That they're working with on their unique needs. I know nothing about from being on this side of the microphone, um, but it would be taking a look at early childhood and, you know, a lot of, for so many, there's all different kind of barriers to being able to do that one profound trauma.

Right? And there might be gaps in your memory, right? Or your experience, um, having mental disorders or your mental health not feeling strong. There's a barrier to approaching that work when you're in a low space. And also, you know, um. Sometimes we're held back by this idea that you're dishonoring your family.

Mm-hmm. By being honest about experiences or you feel embarrassed to. Right. So these are all kind of things to be aware of why you may not want to do this and kind of go running into your healing journey, you know, smiling and skipping. [00:34:00] But the sooner you can get a look at what is the truth of what your foundation actually is and what you're working with, the easier it will be to connect to the spaces that are most ideal for your healing journey.

Right At the base, I would say. It is not possible to only heal your mind and not heal your body too. Thank you. You have to do both. And I highly, highly recommend for everyone, and this was part of my journey. If you are in cognitive therapy, look to somatic therapy as well, or somatic experiencing, because there has to be a bridge, a connection.

I like to call it an elevator. You're taking down from your mind into your heart. If you are just understanding what you've been through and gaining language for it, that does not mean you'll be able to change your life. Change comes through practicing different behaviors and having new and different experiences.

Dr. Taz: Mm.

Devi Brown: [00:35:00] So even on just kind of like a very subtle level. I'd advise, you know, if you say have, have a breakthrough session with your therapist, consider, you know, going and getting a massage afterwards so that you can actually think about what you're now coming to know and have this experience of being in your physical body at the same time.

It is very easy to over intellectualize. Yes. And then get really high on it. Yeah. You know, like how many people. Have told you I've read every book. Yep. All the time. I get that nonstop. Yeah. I've read all the self-help books. Yeah. I know about this, that da dah, dah, dah. I've done every test, I've done every kind of test.

I Cool, cool, cool. And what is your actual practice of being with yourself look like? Mm. What does your grief practice look like? When do you make time to feel your experiences or to grieve the experiences you now have language for? You still have to give [00:36:00] your body the opportunity to participate with the healing that is happening for you

Dr. Taz: intellectually.

Yeah. And I don't really believe healing. Happens in one dimension, which is basically what you're saying, you know? Um, deeply agree. Yeah. I mean, I'm the person who looks at the data and puts the data together, but I see that as just sort of lighting a match to start you on your way kind of thing, you know?

But I know in my heart it's not the answer. And it's interesting 'cause I get all kinds of patients. Like I just had somebody recently who's done every test you can imagine has the means to do every test, right. And fed it into chat GPT and got a very involved complicated plan with. 15 to 20 supplements and all these recommendations and nuances that were partly impressive because it took her genetics and could match it even down to the supplement level.

But were also partly overwhelming, you know? Yeah. And so, you know, for the seeker out there, right, whether [00:37:00] it's the health seeker or the wellness seeker or whatever we're gonna call them, I feel like what I'm hearing from you is that we have to start with our intuition and we have to start with getting quiet for a second, you know?

Yeah. You know, is there, is there a sequence we can put people on? Is there navigating everything that's out there? You know, is it intuition first, examine your childhood and childhood home and family history next. Yeah. Do a symptom analysis third, you know, then start to sit with what that next practitioner or person or place needs to be, you

Devi Brown: know?

Dr. Taz: Yeah.

Devi Brown: You know, my personal recommendation would be, um. It would probably be if you're starting from absolute scratch, get some, get some panels done first. Mm-hmm. I would say go to do the labs first. Get, do your labs first. You start with me. Just kidding. I'm kidding. 'cause there are some things that may not just be you, right?

Like we're learning [00:38:00] now you could have like chronic depression if you're low in vitamin D. Correct? Yeah. So depending on where you are missing your, your nutrients. The core, yeah. I wouldn't say engage on this whole new like dietary plan. I think that comes a little later because there's a certain amount of peace you have to make with your body.

I would say. In intuition is a massive part of it, but I don't know that we can heal our connection to our innate intuition until we start to look at the things that have made us turn it off. So when you be, when you begin with some panels and labs, and then also work with some of your younger curriculum.

So for instance, something that I found out when I did a a ton of labs is that I had a lot of issues with my gut. Yeah. A lot of that happened because I was a child of the nineties and I was RA and I was a latchkey kid, and I was raised by, you know, an incredibly hardworking [00:39:00] single mom that at the end of the day, sometimes the best we could do is like go through the drive through, right?

Yeah. Yeah. No one knew anything was wrong with that at the time. Right. You know, let all the commercials on TV tell you I'm having the greatest childhood ever. I get a McDonald's toy every night. Right. What that actually did to my young body was kind of ruin my gut. Right. So when I was even speaking to those early childhood experiences with my doctor as we went over labs, it was clear and understandable.

Yeah. You had really poor diet for like the vast majority of your life starting in childhood. So that's what the leaky gut is from. That's what some of these issues are stemming from. So we need to rebuild, you know, that part of your body. Um, so it's like our childhood experiences. So the specifics are like that deeply linked with things that we may not think are that big of a deal.

So I would say when you're kind of working with examining what were some of those, like [00:40:00] seminal or milestone threshold moments in early childhood and work with what is the current kind of, um, plateau in your health? Like where, where do you really stand with your body's health? That is such a powerful start.

From there, you get to really then start to move into more of the spiritual healing and the aspects of acceptance, of making peace with things that we can't change and coming up with a way to really. This is my belief. Connect with God. Yeah. Connect, reconnect, and rebuild your connection to divine energy.

Right. And how you love yourself.

Dr. Taz: I even think, and this is probably a slightly revolutionary statement, but I even think that it's very difficult to connect with the spirit world or with God, you know, whatever your belief system is. If you are not clear and balanced from a chemical, you know, nutritional, [00:41:00] inflammatory standpoint, I think you are so clouded and that you can have this concept of spirit and you can intellectually understand it, or you can traditionally follow it, but you can't truly feel and connect until you get that foundational chemistry taken care of.

And it's, you know, I'm, I'm a little surprised that you picked labs 'cause that's what I would've picked, right? Because I see that, I mean, I just had a patient the other day with severe burnout, severe depression. Not a thing checked on him, not no one checked B vitamins, vitamin D, inflammation, markers, hormones, none of that stuff.

And I'm like, there's some foundational work that needs to be done, you know, before you're, you know, given the label and placed on a medication, you know, so, so I, you know, I a hundred percent agree with that, just from my experience and what I've seen in practice for sure is that that is a great beginning point and sometimes your intuition clears as you do that stuff too, you know?

Absolutely. So, you know, sometimes that is the journey up that I like to talk about is like, get the, [00:42:00] the tactics, get the, you know, get these granular details maybe taken care of, and then the answers start to come to you and you become your own self-healing vessel, so to speak. How did this play out in your life?

How did this journey play out in the course of your life and what you're doing today and the book, you know, all these things, so, oh my

Devi Brown: gosh, yeah. It's, it's been, um, so much divine orchestration so much. Really listening to intuition, like at the deepest level the first time. You know, um, it, it's interesting.

I think a lot of my path was really reverse engineered, and I think it is because I, I really love being able to work with sometimes harder cases mm-hmm. To figure out Same. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So you're like, you gotta do that on yourself too. Yeah. Uhhuh, um, you know, I came when I was in my early, so I've always been fascinated by meditation, by spiritual work, by self-help work.

Yeah. I was really a kid that was like reading self-help books at 11, um, trying to meet a [00:43:00] need I didn't even know I had. But now looking back, I'm like, wow, girl. Like you really showed up for yourself. Yeah. Um, but I had, when I was in my early to mid twenties, I had been working, like, I had started working multiple jobs when I was 16 and I had found myself in a very high paced.

Career, fast-paced career. Um, by my early twenties and by my, my early mid twenties, I had gotten shingles. And that is something that a lot of doctors will tell you. Typically presents seventies, eighties, you're, you're in your elder life when that particular condition, which is usually a stress response, comes into your body.

It was really painful. I had no idea what was going on. And my doctor was like, why do you have all this stress in your life? And that was the first time I actually looked at working that much as being. Like not a good thing. Mm-hmm. Because I was so celebrated for it. Mm-hmm. And it was like the timeframe, it [00:44:00] was pre girl boss, but it was very much in the timeframe of, you know, sleep is the cousin of death.

Right. Like, you hustle, just do it, work, you know, get out there. Um, and, and I loved the things that I was building, um, but I was also in like a new marriage. That was hard. Yeah. That was really hard. And I still didn't know to look

Dr. Taz: at that yet. So you, that new marriage though, was in this phase of you hustling?

Yes. They went together.

Devi Brown: Yeah. They both were still happening. The hustle was ingrained. Right. But both were still happening. By that time I had moved multiple states. Yeah. For work and for for love. And, um, and so that experience led me to start meditating. I was able to develop, I went away on this like detox retreat and that's also when I first learned I was in spaces that weren't necessarily.

Understanding of like a spectrum of experiences that bring you in the room. It was a long time ago, so I was definitely the only woman of color in the [00:45:00] room, and by far the only person as young as I was in the room. Yeah, right. Yeah. The, the revolution of wellness hadn't happened yet. Um, and so I learned to meditate, which was profound, but I didn't quite know that it was a holistic view that all these other things were involved in not feeling peace.

Mm-hmm. And I think what is confusing for a lot of people, especially if you start with mindfulness. If you've had harder or different experiences, you don't naturally know how to relax. Yeah. Like it is something you actually have to work, learn in your body. You're always a high, high cortisol, high nervous system state.

Always. Yeah. So when people are saying things like, relax, you don't understand that you're not doing it or why it's so hard for you. Um, so I had started meditating. I knew that that was really like my calling was to be in that space. I didn't have all the tools yet, but I spent years studying while maintaining my other career.

Um, and doing, going down that path. And I had [00:46:00] always been someone that people look to for things, for inspiration, for knowledge. So I was used to being in a position of helping and of leadership. So I thought everything was all good. Right. And I still hadn't put into like a deep understanding that being in this really hard relationship.

Was probably not healthy for me in any way.

Dr. Taz: Hmm. I

Devi Brown: thought it was still just like, you work harder on it. Yeah. Let's leave, let's read the five languages Yeah. Of love. Yeah. And, and that's what it is. We just didn't know each other's love languages. Right. Or

Dr. Taz: Right. You know,

Devi Brown: and it's like sometimes that's the answer and sometimes it's absolutely not.

Um, and so it would be absolute years before I really understood how interlinked the quality of all the relationships in my life was and my childhood and this and that to my overall health and peace. And [00:47:00] so I had already been a meditation teacher. I had been certified in other modalities. I had been creating work and then like my real crash happened where, um, nothing was working and my body was failing me.

And then I got divorced. When my health started getting dramatically better after my divorce, it was like all the lights in the room turned on. Hmm. And I was able to really look at, and gratefully that also corresponded with the rise in understanding of mental health, of relational health, of women's physical health.

All it was this perfect storm of awakening that was really starting to come in. And so I started looking at researching, studying. Absolutely everything. And I started really showing up for my body. So even though it would be years before I linked this with medical health, uh, western medicine, I did start [00:48:00] showing up for my body as a traumatized person.

I started looking at the true root of my childhood experiences, how that led me into this relationship that was profoundly wrong for me. And then what the toll of being in a 10 year relationship that is not right for you, what that can actually take on your body. And I start looking at the fact that wow.

My health started failing after I got married. I started having like 30 pounds worth of inflammation in my body after that. Brain fog, eye twitching, rashes, um, shingles, you know, chronic pain, my trigger points constantly flared, right? I was constantly in a state of being flared up that didn't cease for a decade.

And the toll that that took, um, on, on conditions I'll now live with forever because of it. Right. And so in being able to see, it's [00:49:00] almost like it was the

Dr. Taz: tipping point

Devi Brown: for you. Yeah. And you know, gratefully in being able to get all of that information though, a lot of it was really heartbreaking to hold and to have and to sit with.

Um. It did give me a plan. It gave me a deep understanding of myself and my body. It gave me grace and compassion for myself, and it gave me a resolve to care for myself and to have boundaries that were really supportive to what I deserved

Dr. Taz: and what I needed. So many women struggle with that, and this is such a story for women kind of powering through even relationships and even parenting.

It's not just marital, it's even parenting and so many other things. Yeah. That actually make us physically ill. Why do you think we as women are susceptible to that? God, why? Why

Devi Brown: wouldn't we be?

Dr. Taz: Yeah.

Devi Brown: You know, like if we really look like granularly at how women have been indoctrinated. [00:50:00] Since like the inception of humanity.

Mm-hmm. How could we not? Right? Yeah. I, I even remember times that I, I thought I wanted to leave my relationship so much earlier and how almost every woman and man that I went to for advice. Told me not to. Yeah. No matter what I told them, it was still somehow about my ability to pressure through and be the sole person that was meant to fix the entirety of the connection or how actually my job was to learn to understand him better, and that's what would make our lives better.

Right? Mm-hmm. Not a single person listened to what I was sharing and said, Hey, you don't deserve that. Yeah. Or, that doesn't seem healthy, or, right, right. Or maybe you should, you know, create space or seek this out. You know, it, the awareness wasn't there. It, the pressure is typically always put on the woman, on the, always [00:51:00] on the woman to fix any and everything about whatever relationship they find themselves in, whether that's romantic or friendship or otherwise.

Yeah. It's, it's kind of, you know, the work we're meant to take on, I think. Also on top of that, outside of just the relationship view, it's, we've all been indoctrinated with this sense of martyrdom. You know, I, I look at, I look back to even something that, that could seem silly, which is that as little girls we're taught to play with babies, why are we training to be caretakers when we need to be taken care of?

Right. Right. Like, it's cute, right? It is like sweet in some ways to see us replicating our moms or, but it's also kind of bringing us onto this path of overgiving and over caring for absolutely everyone from such a young age. Mm-hmm. And then all of this, you know, bring that into the future of wanting to be for those that do in a relationship, a wife, a mother, a whatever.

[00:52:00] It's always put down. To kind of this singular experience of who you're meant to be, how you're meant to show up, and how you're meant to do it all, and also have no one to help you in any way emotionally, physically, and mentally.

Dr. Taz: Yeah. I mean, I hope that whoever's listening to this will, if you know someone who's struggling in a relationship or someone struggling, that you're supportive.

We have so many stories throughout our family lineage of people doing exactly that. Right. Like put up with it, you know? Yeah. Ignore, there's no divorce, there's never been a divorce in our generations. How dare you go get divorced. My mom was told that, you know, like absolutely. Of, of being forced to carry on the show, so to speak.

You know? And it does make us physically sick and I think, you know, every woman everywhere needs to understand that and support another woman if she's going kind of through that journey. Yeah. What's the one piece of wisdom that your body gave to you? [00:53:00] Hmm.

Devi Brown: I think really working, not just to hear my intuition, but to listen to it the first time. I don't know if we ever stop hearing it, but we do find a way to bypass it. Oh, yes. Faster and faster. Yes, yes. Every time. For sure. And I think like being able to reconnect to that inherent wisdom of trusting a gut response has been really special for me.

And life changing. Hmm. I think, um, a way that I used to kind of jokingly say this years ago would be, you know, listen to God's whispers so you don't have to. Get punched in the face. Mm. You know, or Mm. Or catch a fight with God. And I think that's how I look at it. I'm not looking to argue with God anymore.

I trust that my body is connected to the divine, to my own safety, and that when I listen to it the first time, I can listen to it without having to have [00:54:00] proof of why I should be listening at this point

Dr. Taz: in my life. I love that. I love that. Tell us about living in wisdom and what. You're doing in that partic in this particular book and what you're hoping the reader will take away.

Devi Brown: Thank you. I hope with living and wisdom, I can help people get out of their heads and into their bodies. I wrote this book for people that are intellectualizes, the people that have the answers that every single person that read the books, right, or listen to the podcast. Yeah. And you know, I really want people to move into a state of let's not just keep regurgitating information and feeling so proud of ourselves because we know the terms.

Let's actually work to spend slow patient time with ourselves, which is also usually the most unnerving and triggering so that we can change the experiences we're having and bring in a higher quality of wellbeing into our lives. My book is really focused on what I experience as the divine dance of [00:55:00] grief and joy.

That we are all doing in every moment that we may not recognize. I think we run from grief, we run from discomfort, and it is so much easier to actually find a way to meet those needs in real time than it is to spend a lifetime running from them and then trying to do this kind of bigger work all at once.

Mm. And so I think in today's day and time, more than ever, it's so important and we are deserving of the compassion necessary to understand. We are dealing with a lot. Life is hard. Yeah. Pretending it's anything, but it just robs us of our human experience. Life is challenging. Um, it's been designed to be, it's never not been challenging for anyone who's ever lived.

Um, even for those, you know, for those of the Christian faith, you think of who is the most perfect person you've ever [00:56:00] known? Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. How hard was Jesus' life? Right. Such a good point. It's one of the hardest Yeah. Heartbreaking, most challenging stories I've ever heard. And

Dr. Taz: most of the religious leaders, if you look at their lives, it was not some absolute floating in roses type parade that they were on.

They were, they were truly suffering. Yeah. They truly walked a path, you know, so, and

Devi Brown: all our great leaders. Yeah. All our great servant leaders. Yeah. You know, usually it's, you come to these deeper truths that serve humanity through a lot of personal hardship and self excavation. And I think, you know. We really should be looking to be with ourselves and our bodies, because right now we are experiencing more than any human alive ever has.

Not only are we reckoning with our own lived experience, right, which is gonna include challenge, right? Mm-hmm. To the degree, I don't know, but it will include challenge. For some people it's a lot more challenge than others. But then we also have the challenge and [00:57:00] the agony of bearing witness to profound hardship all around us.

Mm-hmm. The hardship that's in front of us. Mm-hmm. The divide that is happening in this country, no matter what side you find yourself on, but we're also witnessing holy war in the world. We're witnessing many wars. Yeah. In many countries. Yeah. So much death, starvation, murder everywhere. And we're seeing it all at once, like no one alive has ever had to before.

Yeah. You know, think about a couple hundred years ago, it might be a year before you even find out there was about anybody, right? Yeah. And it's probably ended by the time you heard about it. So I just bring that forward to say it's a lot. Yeah. On this human body, on this human brain, on this human heart to be holding so many things at one time.

And so we should all be looking to disengage from this kind of [00:58:00] stoic, silent way of approaching ourselves in life this or this martyred way of approaching ourselves in life and really look and say. It's a hard time being alive. How do I meet that need? How do I meet it in a way that I can still also connect to my purpose, to joy that I deserve to feel while I'm here?

To happiness, to health, to love, um, and in order to authentically have any of those feelings present in our lives and body, love, happiness, purpose. We also have to be willing to say, and I will feel the grief too. Yeah. And I'll find ways to move it. I'll find ways to free myself of that energy or to honor it while it's here so I can authentically have space for the good stuff while it's present too.

So powerful. Where can we find this book? Living in Wisdom, gratefully is available everywhere that you enjoy buying books. [00:59:00] Um. Amazon, of course, you can always get a great nice little deal on there. Yes. And get it primed. Yeah. Um, and also the audio book. Yeah. I had such a, such an amazing time. Did you record it?

I did. Amazing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And I loved it. And, and so I was also able for those that may have connected with me on the Chopra app leading daily meditation. Yeah. I have meditations that I voice from the book that you can do. Um, my desire was really to create a body of work that I could also be a companion with you on the journey.

Yeah. As you read it. Yeah. Um, and explain why you, I think one of the best compliments I got about the book recently was a woman had come up to me and she said. Oh my God, your book made me so angry. And I said, really? And she goes, there were a few times that I'd read something and I'd be like, what is she talking about?

And I would get in the car and I would take a drive, and by the time I made it back home, I would pick it back up and be like, oh, this is what she meant. Okay, let me [01:00:00] investigate why I am so upset. So she said, I'd spend a few days with that feeling and I'd get to where I needed to be, and then I'd pick the book back up.

And so for some people that depending on what we may be suppressing, that may be the experience. Right. Um, and I'm, I'm so grateful that wherever you are, my desire is that it can meet you somewhere with grace and with dignity and with process to transcend what the against ness may be to

Dr. Taz: the work.

There's so many ways. Women, men to, you know, deal with the emotional load, deal with being out of alignment. Suppression is one for sure. Anger is another. Irritability, as you mentioned in the beginning, frustration, depression. There's so many different ways we all, we all process this stuff differently. I think the importance is just start somewhere and, and begin the journey.

And I love that, you know, this is a tool for people who are ready to, to begin that. And I think everybody should start a healing journey because if you don't [01:01:00] start it today, I promise you it will show up and you and I will be talking about it at some point in some way. All right. Final question. What makes you whole?

Mm,

Devi Brown: oh my gosh. What makes me whole? Wow. I think what makes me whole is my acceptance of what is my acceptance of the present moment. I think that's, that's powerful. Thank you. I think I have a desire to meet myself where I am with what I ha what I have in any moment. Mm-hmm. And I feel really grateful for that.

'cause that hasn't always been the case, but it allows me to be, at least the vast majority of the time, the mom that I really wanna be for my son. Mm-hmm. Not perfect, right. But regulated emotionally. Um, and it allows me to just be with whatever is most true about my life in any given moment. And [01:02:00] that doesn't always mean great things.

You know, sometimes it is, sometimes it's so special and wonderful and sometimes it's really hard. But I, what makes me whole, I think, is my ability to be. Honest about the truth of my life and accepting of whatever is in front of me in any given

Dr. Taz: moment. So powerful. I think I've asked this question of almost every guest.

I don't think I've gotten quite that response. It just to me means that you have evolved to a place where many of us are probably still trying to get through or get to. So thank you for that. Thank you. It's been so great talking to you. Everyone. Get this book, living In Wisdom. Connect with your Divine Self.

It will lead you down the right path. I love that point that we're not all meant to have an easy, comfortable life. I think that's a myth of the modern world, right? Yeah. There will be pain and there will be challenge, but it's to get us to a different, a different place spiritually and even physically. So thank you for your [01:03:00] time today.

I appreciate it. And for everybody else watching and listening, remember I post new episodes every week and you can follow. Debbie, what's a good place to follow you or get more information?

Devi Brown: Instagram is a great starting point at Debbie Brown or my website, debbie brown.com. Wonderful. Thank you so much and we'll see you guys

Dr. Taz: next time.

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